What's wrong with 'Cisgender'

[ASugar]

As someone who identifies as a cisgender woman and works in sexual health, I am honestly confused as to why so many females (sex term) who identify with being women (gender term) dislike the term Cisgender?

Now I'm not here to tell you what to say, I am genuinely curious.

However, here is my opinion for those who may be interested.

Cisgender just means you are not transgender. That your sex links you your gender and you assign any gender terms (ie. Pronouns, Gender identity, sometimes gender expression but not always, etc). I personally don't like to think that just because I was born with a vagina means I am a woman because I know many men with vaginas and women with penises. Additionally those who don't have a gender identity, then that would mean you wouldn't use women and men as they're gender terms (according to medical professionals). It would make you non binary or agender.

I understand that the term 'Cis' has been used to insult others which for that I am sorry.
My view is that if you can't allow trans women to be accepted in society and identified as women (without the need for 'trans' infront of it constantly) then we should be using cisgender. It is a medical term that professionals such as the NHS recognize. But I understand that is just my opinion.

I probably won't be commenting as I can imagine this will be filled with comments and I don't want to disrespect anyone's views. Just a cisgender woman who wants to understand more...

And as always I would appreciate if you respect my view as I'm going to be respecting all of yours.

So we're back to innate, indescribable, unidentifiable feelings about "womanhood", unrelated to presentation or biology,which can be either masculine or feminine according to current societal mores, but not necessarily either.

Excuse me for a moment, I think my brain might be leaking out of ears. I'll have a wipe and tell you what colour it is. Which may help.

@TheMarzipanDildo

“Which I get.

But what is the thing that determines gender?

Think about it.

With every single word in the English language at your disposal, and a creative mind, think.

What could it be?“

is it a feeling? Because if it is

Well, I can understand a feeling. But it has to be based on something.

If you are devoting a lot of your time to wanting to be the opposite sex, there has to be criteria. I don't feel like this, I feel like that. I don't want this, I want that.

What is it?

ASugar surely you realise that answer makes no sense?

I know a transboy. Legally they are female. If we were to be linguistically correct, rather then polite, that would he she/ her. They look female.

So by your definition, that person has a female gender?

@ASugar working with your argument that gender identity is just about pronouns, I want you to imagine that you're head of a company who wants to create an internship for disadvantaged women. This internship is going to be a pretty big deal and guarantees a well paying job at the end.
If pronouns are the only requirement to be a woman, how would you write the rules to make sure people didn't change their pronouns just to take advantage of the internship?

@FiveToFour

"labrengun OP - do you put as much effort into arguing this point with men?* Yes. I do.

If not more as cis men are the ones to hurt us and oppress us the most along with oppress the LGBTQ community.*"

But cismen can be members of the LGBTQ community - they are oppressing themselves?

Cis men within the LGBTQ can oppress themselves. Anyone can oppress their own group.

What I mean by oppress is mean cause the highest amount of assults and harm. Which cis hetrosexual men tend to dominate.

@PheasantPlucker1

ASugar surely you realise that answer makes no sense?

I know a transboy. Legally they are female. If we were to be linguistically correct, rather then polite, that would he she/ her. They look female.

So by your definition, that person has a female gender?

No incorrect. If they identify as a boy/man then that is who they are.

TheMarzipanDildo

Sorry, I didn't mean you, personally. I meant generally.

@coldemortreturns agree 100% but it made me laugh because I can just imagine in about 5 years time there'll be a new movement who aren't ciswomen but want to identify as ciswomen and so we'll have to be called something else. 🤣

OP - "We only should if trans women are being forced to be referred to as trans women when they want to be identified as women"

But they are Transwomen = Adult human males who wish to be (perceived as) women.

They are not Women = Adult human females.

@prrtnyao

What I take away from this thread, and all the others that have been started in the same vein recently, is that those on the side of being gender critical have strong convictions, well thought out arguments, and statistics to cite to back up what they say. Those on the TRA side seem to make this rubbish up as they go along. What they say is incoherent and twists and turns to fit their ideology. The words and terminology they use have been stripped of all meaning and trying to follow what they say is like fighting to hold a bar of soap in the shower.

Well said! That's what I've noticed too (and admittedly until 2 years ago I was an advocate for Trans rights and called people 'terfs' - I feel so ashamed looking back, it was this site that informed me and made me do a 180, so thank you Mumsnet!).

I changed my views due to the sheer volume of facts and well-researched, well-thought out arguments on the Gender Critical side. It was the sheer volume of facts, the looking at statistics of the abuse of women in prisons by transwomen inmates, the forcing women to shave men's genitals in spas and clinics, the complete disregard for Muslim women who wear the Hijab in public but not in these women's spaces, the utter disregard for vulnerable women and vulnerable girls. Not one of the TRAs has been able to give a convincing argument (re the spa and the male suing them, they give no answer whatsoever). Not one.

I literally did a 180 overnight. I really did. I felt so embarrassed and ashamed that I was so ignorant to the harm I was promoting.

But, I wonder, this site and it's wealth of facts, arguments and researched statistics changed my mind, and I hope the OP and others like them will become educated about the issue and perhaps change their minds the same as I did? That is my hope, and why I argue on here, at 4:57am in the morning where I am! Perhaps if those like the OP coming from twitter come here, read, they too will have their moment when the facts click. If so, I think it's worth it. Education is the key, and this section has it, I believe it's hard to read and not become educated and change your mind. Even if it is one lurker reading has their lightbulb moment. It's worth it. It happened to me, there is hope. :)

What I mean by oppress is mean cause the highest amount of assults and harm. Which cis hetrosexual men tend to dominate

Ahhh, and transwomen are different in this respect because?

OP, how do you define "woman"?

"Cisgender just means you are not transgender."

No, it just means I do not recognise gender in any way, shape or form. I don't know anyone personally who uses the word "cisgender".
You can call yourself anything you like, but please do not include me in "gender ideology".
I am a man, my wife is a woman.

Asugar

Are you saying then that a woman is a person who uses she/her or she/they pronouns? That’s it, that’s all a woman is?

What does it meant to legally be a woman or be identified as a woman if it’s just down to pronouns? We don’t know people’s pronouns, at least I don’t think we do, because it seems important to ask people what they are. So how can anyone pass as a woman / be identified as a woman if you cannot assume what pronouns someone is using.

What is a feminine gender expression?

What is a masculine gender expression?

You haven’t engaged with any of my questions frustratingly, and I really want to understand.

The woman gender identity doesn't mean you gender expression has to be feminine. It is just the use of she/her or she/they pronouns, to be identified as a woman and to be legally recognized as a woman. You don't have to be feminine to be a cis or trans woman. Feminine and masculine are gender expressions.

Seriously? we had the reductio ad absurdum on the other thread (the analogy was that if you decide to use the neopronoun 'majesty' it doesn't make you a monarch) .
I can't think of a polite way to characterise that. It's meaningless.

“Well, I can understand a feeling. But it has to be based on something.”

Yeah this is what I mean. It’s completely unquantifiable. I don’t know what it “feels” like to be a man because I have never been one, so how would I know if I was actually a trans man?

Being ‘transsexual’ makes a lot more sense to me because it suggests dislike of a sexed body, rather than some nebulous feeling (founded on 1950s style stereotypes, let’s be honest)

[quote Carouselfish]@coldemortreturns agree 100% but it made me laugh because I can just imagine in about 5 years time there'll be a new movement who aren't ciswomen but want to identify as ciswomen and so we'll have to be called something else. 🤣

[/quote]
Exactly.

It's not the words, it's the concept.

Hence, is it India W who said i'm a female, or cis, I can't remember.

But it won't matter what word is used.

ASugar so to clarify, having a female gender its just saying one is female?

Thats it? Theres nothing else you can add, gender is just the desire to say those words?

The woman gender identity doesn't mean you gender expression has to be feminine. It is just the use of she/her or she/they pronouns, to be identified as a woman and to be legally recognized as a woman. You don't have to be feminine to be a cis or trans woman. Feminine and masculine are gender expressions.

It's worth remembering that, as the OP ties themselves into linguistic knots over this nonsense, they don't actually speak for trans people. In fact, as they've already said that they "identify" as a "cis woman" there are many trans people so would tear OP to shreds for daring to speak on behalf of trans people. Also note that most trans people would disagree with the word salad in bold above. They would assert that they are a trans woman and are going to the huge effort of transitioning because they "feel" like a woman and "feel" they were born in the wrong body.

Because the OP is taking horseshit, they have now backed themselves into a linguistic corner and are asserting that "the woman gender identity... is just the use of she/her pronouns."

What a lot of fucking shite.

@CoteDAzur

OP - "We only should if trans women are being forced to be referred to as trans women when they want to be identified as women"

But they are Transwomen = Adult human males who wish to be (perceived as) women.

They are not Women = Adult human females.

Well I could argue that we are cis women.

@tellmetologoffIamaMNaddict

OP, how do you define "woman"?

Someone who uses she/her or she/they pronounce and identifies with being female or a woman.

You laugh carousel but they've already moved in on female after initially claiming gender and sex were different, haven't they? And they do claim that penises are female and they were born women with a penis. So what's the difference with cis anyway?

I find labels that are imposed onto me to be offensive. Genuinely I really struggle with labels, I get that for some people labels are comforting, but for myself it's a no.

Labels and in particular this label imposes a preconceived notion of whom I am. I don't want to share with people who I am, I don't want to be defined as someone else's stereotype.

When someone uses that term, or calls me short or middle aged as a distinguisher - it makes me feel that they don't approve of me, it makes me feel that that person views me as lessor. And it makes me recoil and not want to have dealings with that person, as they can not show respect and do not view me as equal.

Labeling people without their consent is to promote inequality and discrimination.

But what does identify mean? what is it that makes them feel female?

No ASugar you can argue you are a ciswoman.

You dont have the right to enforce your belief on any of us, or misgender anyone.

As has been pointed out, misgendering us is not just rude, its an actual hate crime.