What's wrong with 'Cisgender'

[ASugar]

As someone who identifies as a cisgender woman and works in sexual health, I am honestly confused as to why so many females (sex term) who identify with being women (gender term) dislike the term Cisgender?

Now I'm not here to tell you what to say, I am genuinely curious.

However, here is my opinion for those who may be interested.

Cisgender just means you are not transgender. That your sex links you your gender and you assign any gender terms (ie. Pronouns, Gender identity, sometimes gender expression but not always, etc). I personally don't like to think that just because I was born with a vagina means I am a woman because I know many men with vaginas and women with penises. Additionally those who don't have a gender identity, then that would mean you wouldn't use women and men as they're gender terms (according to medical professionals). It would make you non binary or agender.

I understand that the term 'Cis' has been used to insult others which for that I am sorry.
My view is that if you can't allow trans women to be accepted in society and identified as women (without the need for 'trans' infront of it constantly) then we should be using cisgender. It is a medical term that professionals such as the NHS recognize. But I understand that is just my opinion.

I probably won't be commenting as I can imagine this will be filled with comments and I don't want to disrespect anyone's views. Just a cisgender woman who wants to understand more...

And as always I would appreciate if you respect my view as I'm going to be respecting all of yours.

Speaking as a woman in her early 50s, I think one of the reasons I'm so resistant to the current "societal changes" (which aren't really broad societal yet, but it's an ongoing goal to impose them), it's that having gone through my teens and twenties dealing with the biology I was born with, dealing with periods, terminations, miscarriages and childcare, because I didn't have any option to do otherwise, on top of dealing with assumptions and expectations directly related to my biology and regardless of my individual personality or abilities, which the gender bending of the 80s and 90s began to erode thank God, this whole issue is utterly regressive and breeds resentment.

Arguments over "privilege" are utterly over-simplified - how the hell can you claim that women have privilege over men who were born with the privilege of male biology and retain that biology but now say they are women and always have been? It's basically saying "it's not fair that I was born with the wrong body and you must make me feel better by taking the blame for this accident of nature on both sides".

Ultimately feelings cannot be allowed to trump facts. That way madness lies.

@NotTerfNorCis

The big question is, if woman can mean female or male, then what exactly is a woman? How does someone know they are one?

Good question. Never answered.

Language evolves

Nice try.

A woman is an adult human female, sex based. Sex does not evolve, therefore the word woman should not ‘evolve’.

If feminists misgender people, its deleted immediatly

Not true.
Threads on here consistently call trans people they as don't want to use pronouns.

Why is that?
To do it to others (not meaning you, just on here in general) it seems a bit hypocritical to say to trans people "hurty feelz" or "not validating them" (which I have seen a lot of) and then take offence at someone using c**s as a descriptor.

I don't want this to happen.
Can you imagine the out cry if all female Woman were to write CIS to denote we grew up with a female organs and were identified at Birth, as such
Trans woman would be come woman and would instantly be identified as not a CISwoman, all a person would do is say are you CIS or not.
So then Trans want the CIS label, and a new word would have to be found.

I saw it at least a dozen times in a single thread yesterday. And again today on the Boots thread.

man? or male? there is a difference.

I know many men with vaginas and women with penises.

Are you sure about that?

The problem is cisgender is actually circular and meaningless.

Using the term cisgender implies acceptance of a metaphysical innate gender identity that we can compare against our sexed bodies.

This implies we have to believe in this gender identity that would transcend cultures and socialisation. It means we need to accept this unquantifiable gender identity and imagine everyone has an inbuilt checklist against our sexed bodies.

We can only accept cisgender if we have faith in this checklist. There is no evidence for it and it seems madness we would all have this inbuilt gender identity that transcends time, cultural and societal differences.

We also need to ask where this checklist comes from because if it is innate it cannot be culturally, socially and politically contingent. However, all checklists have to be so.

For cisgender to work as a concept we would need an absolute model of masculinity and femininity which doesn’t change over time and can cross cultures. How can it exist if what was cis changes depending on history or geography? That’s madness. The entire concept makes no sense.

This doesn’t even consider the fact that gender has been used to oppress women for years. Effectively accepting cis means accepting sexism.

"Cis" is a term used by ideologically motivated people. I do not subscribe to their poisonous ideology. The term "cis" is offensive. I am a woman.

Humans exist as either male or female, men or women, and any discussion beyond this is just bluster and lies. If someone wants to surgically alter themselves and wear clothes traditionally associated with the opposite sex, then they have the freedom to do so if they are a consenting adult. They have all the human rights afforded to them that I do. They don't, however, have the freedom or right to compel me into stating falsehoods or the freedom not to be offended. No one has these rights.

And as for the question "why do we need to know children's genders?" We don't "need" to know. Physicians look between their legs and see if they have a penis or a vagina and therefore whether they are a boy or a girl. It's not complicated, as much as you'd like to make it so.

Cisgender' is essentially a belief in biological determinism.

Yep.

@NoSquirrels, @bellagogosdead - I've just been off googling for an answer, and couldn't find a definitive answer.

I think the "leave it at the door" makes the most sense to me, but I can see the appeal of "examine" (although I don't think the phrase is asking you to dwell on your privilege, rather to set it aside). There's also the sense of reining it in: "keep your privilege in check".

Can't help but laugh at people who argue 'cis' women are privileged and also criticise women on FWR boards for not discussing 'real' feminist issues like FGM, gender pay gap, child marriage, abortion enough for their liking. Can you not put 2 and 2 together? Can you not see how TW are privileged over women? How many transwomen were murdered in the U.K. in 2020 compared to women? The answer is none versus 2 a week. There's your fucking privilege.

@ASugar

Thank you for all your contributions so far.

Additional question, many of you have said that the term woman defines you enough and you don't feel you need to identify any further, which I can completely understand.

If a transgender woman said the term woman is all they used to define themselves, that would also be within their right. Agree or disagree?

You have a right to call yourself what you want You dont have the right for other people to support your view if it’s just not factual

Humans exist as either male or female, men or women, and any discussion beyond this is just bluster and lies. If someone wants to surgically alter themselves and wear clothes traditionally associated with the opposite sex, then they have the freedom to do so if they are a consenting adult

YESSS! THIS 100% !!!

It seems we have two different possible word usage.

Woman - female sex, no conflict in terms of gender.
Man- male sex, no conflict in terms of gender.
Transwoman - male sex, identifies as female gender
Transman- female sex, identifies as male gender

Or

Woman- could be male, could be female, may or may not feel like they have a female gender identity
Ciswoman- definitely female with a conscious female gender identity
Transwoman - male, feels they have a female gender identity
Etc etc for masculine mirror versions.

The first version seems very logical. Everyone has a name. No one is part of a group with people who do not believe they are part of the same group. Everyone has a single group to which they definitely belong.

Version two is a hot mess.

@NotTerfNorCis

The big question is, if woman can mean female or male, then what exactly is a woman? How does someone know they are one?

Apparently you are just for feeling like one. And anytime you feel like one, hence, a man named as businesswoman of the year but is only a woman part of the time, when he feels like it. This must not be in any way questioned or you are a bigot, and must be supported and applauded as brave.

I don't find the term offensive per se but there is clear hypocrisy when transwomen insists they are women, yet an indigineous woman is a cis woman, not just a woman. It clearly shows there is a difference between us so, as there needs to be a differentiator,no matter who that is placed on - cis or trans.

@adviceseekingnamechanger

Can't help but laugh at people who argue 'cis' women are privileged and also criticise women on FWR boards for not discussing 'real' feminist issues like FGM, gender pay gap, child marriage, abortion enough for their liking. Can you not put 2 and 2 together? Can you not see how TW are privileged over women? How many transwomen were murdered in the U.K. in 2020 compared to women? The answer is none versus 2 a week. There's your fucking privilege.

Yep!

Yet another example of womanly privilege right here! Hysteroscopies with no pain relief at all whatsoever and then made to feel you're fussy or guilty of depriving other women of healthcare if you don't tolerate it without anaesthetic like a good little uterus haver:
nopainrelief

OP was an RSE teacher on the last thread.

If a transgender woman said the term woman is all they used to define themselves, that would also be within their right. Agree or disagree?

They can call themselves whatever they like, no one can control what language people use to define themselves. As you are discovering by trying to force us to use cis.

It wouldn't change their sex though. And their shouldn't affect how they engage with the world. The world, especially the laws within it, should be based on provable reality.

@labrengun

OP - do you put as much effort into arguing this point with men?

Yes. I do.

If not more as cis men are the ones to hurt us and oppress us the most along with oppress the LGBTQ community.

@adviceseekingnamechanger

Can't help but laugh at people who argue 'cis' women are privileged and also criticise women on FWR boards for not discussing 'real' feminist issues like FGM, gender pay gap, child marriage, abortion enough for their liking. Can you not put 2 and 2 together? Can you not see how TW are privileged over women? How many transwomen were murdered in the U.K. in 2020 compared to women? The answer is none versus 2 a week. There's your fucking privilege.

Yep.

@Mockolate

If feminists misgender people, its deleted immediatly

Not true.
Threads on here consistently call trans people they as don't want to use pronouns.

Why is that?
To do it to others (not meaning you, just on here in general) it seems a bit hypocritical to say to trans people "hurty feelz" or "not validating them" (which I have seen a lot of) and then take offence at someone using c**s as a descriptor.

Calling someone 'they' is not misgendering as they is a NEUTRAL word.