Trans rights are a part of women's rights

[ASugar]

Trans people don't negatively affect women's rights. They are a part of the women's rights. Both trans men and trans women experience oppression based on being female/a woman.

[quote ASugar]@Wellthatsunusual Never said trans men are women. They are men of the trans experience.[/quote]
But you said transmens rights are part of women's rights. How would that work if they're not women? You said they are oppressed based on being a woman.

So they are simultaneously oppressed based on being a woman, whilst not being a woman? That's... interesting.

[quote ASugar]@FlibbertyGiblets Incorrect. Trans men are born female which is why some women's rights concerns affect them. However trans women are mental and some affect them as well.[/quote]

a woman of trans experience

A woman of trans experience is a transman.

That has actually cheered me right up that post

I just don’t even know where to pick up the thread of this muddled logic. Kittens playing with balls of wool end up with less tangles.

I think there's one strand of agreement with the OP: transmen are female, and are liable to suffer from the same sex based oppressions as any other female.

All the significant oppressions women suffer from are sex based - gender constructs are, in fact, a large part of the oppression and control mechanism.

What oppressions are fundamentally due to someone's gender, rather than their sex?

OP, for me one of the biggest concerns at the moment is the impact of the a Covid pandemic. I and many women have had an absolute hell trying to hold on to jobs whilst simultaneously homeschool our children. Homeschooling and housework seems to disproportionately fall on women. Some days I barley manage to brush my hair (unless I have a video call).

Could you point me in the direction of any interviews with trans women who are dealing with the same issues of doing the majority of homeschooling and housework (not trans women with nannies please).

I think this could be something we could work together on.

Gynophobic bigotry is still gynophobic bigotry, no matter how you try to dress it up.

I love how ASugar only really cares about transwomen being women. Transmen, ah whatever, leave them where they are, not important to me. The patriarchy eh? Starts young.

Schrodinger's woman?

ASugar so in that case we're 'allowed' to say that transwomen are male?

We seem to be having repeated threads on the theme of ‘there is no conflict between women’s rights and trans rights’.

For a start, that makes fairly clear that no threads on this site have actually been read or thought about before making this statement, because all the threads here are specific to the issues and difficulties of women in losing their sex based rights. And lets be honest about this: what is being framed as trans rights largely is the erasure of women’s sex based rights in law, isn’t it?

If you are genuinely open to and interested in this situation and able to take a balanced view, then you have to acknowledge that some women do have needs and issues that cannot be met without sex based rights, and this is a problem for those women that needs to be heard and considered. It’s hardly inclusive or feminist to dismiss women’s voices, even when they’re saying things you don’t agree with,. It's also hardly inclusive, or feminist, or even basically caring and kind to insist on ‘inclusive’ spaces which in fact are not inclusive as they actually exclude some women who cannot use mixed sex spaces. They can’t. It’s not going to work for them.

So how intersectional is your transactivism? Do you believe that some women have to be excluded from everything so that trans people can have their preferred choice of provisions? Why should women be punished for not being able to conform to those beliefs? Those starting these threads: I can see you certainly don’t feel you should have to join them in theirs, so why are you not seeing an ability to extend this respect both ways? Who is being intolerant? The one saying ‘believe and do as you like but don’t force me to participate because my beliefs are different, and we need parallel solutions so everyone’s needs can be met’ or the one saying ‘either you believe this or ... well, that's it, no alternative.’ I mean that sounds awfully like religious intolerance to me?

You will obviously know about intersectionality. Faith, culture, race, disability, trauma, age, and things like privacy, dignity, freedom to be who you are and name yourself how you want – they’re all important things in a civilised, inclusive, diverse society. I believe that women are as entitled to having those things as respected as trans people are. I also believe that answers have to be found that work for everyone. Don’t you?

@Sophoclesthefox

I just don’t even know where to pick up the thread of this muddled logic. Kittens playing with balls of wool end up with less tangles.

It's like OP is playing that game where you see which word your phone suggests next on the predictive text. I'm going to try it now and see what happens.

Women are not so ignorant about it and they don't want to be bothered with it all right now

😂😂😂

My phone's predictive messaging makes more sense than OP!

Most women accept that people born male are women too?

Most women accept that dysphoria exists and should be treated accordingly.

Most women accept that genitalia matter in the medical world.

Most women accept that a lot of the stereotypes we see in western society are regressive and old fashioned.

Most women would not be comfortable sharing a dressing room with an intact male.

Most women have experienced sexual harassment by make bodied people.

Expecting women to accept that people born male can be women is like expecting people to believe in a God. It's personal. You can't force it.

@CoffeeTeaChocolate

OP, for me one of the biggest concerns at the moment is the impact of the a Covid pandemic. I and many women have had an absolute hell trying to hold on to jobs whilst simultaneously homeschool our children. Homeschooling and housework seems to disproportionately fall on women. Some days I barley manage to brush my hair (unless I have a video call).

Could you point me in the direction of any interviews with trans women who are dealing with the same issues of doing the majority of homeschooling and housework (not trans women with nannies please).

I think this could be something we could work together on.

This worries me too.

I'm also very worried by the evidence that shows that men are significantly more likely to die or be severely ill from covid.
They still don't know why.

I wonder if transmen are also in that group

[quote ASugar]@EdgeOfACoin They are given a diagnosis of Gender Dysphoria and live as a woman. Plus having medical professionals assist with this.[/quote]
If your premise - that a woman "is someone with she / her pronouns" who "assigns themselves" as a woman, then isn't the above really transphobic? It presumes medicalisation of identity, and I understand that many people regard this as LITERALLY the same as having electroconvulsive therapy for homosexuals in the 1950s.

I do find it interesting that the response to women saying that their rights and dignity are being dismantled to accommodate transwomen is to say this isn't possible cos transwomen are also women, therefore making females invisible and a subset and subservient to the needs and validation of transwomen.

Its slight of hand and a manipulation of the truth. Its the purest form of propaganda.

Make a group regarded as more vulnerable and underrepresented in power invisible amd silence their complaints about the situation so you don't have to tackle any of their problems.

Trans people very clearly have issues. But human rights mean we don't make minorities invisible in order to recognise the rights of others.

This is precisely why we say transwomen cant be women. Not because we hate them or because we want to harm them etc. But because we become invisible and are harmed if we dont have our distinctive and unique vulnerability made clear and are able to publicly stress exactly why our sex puts us at disadvantage.

Transwomens needs and wants are inheritantly different. And it is important it is recognised for everyone's sake and well-being.

OP have you thought about how this could be solved if transwomen would just be kind ?

Most women accept that dysphoria exists and should be treated accordingly.

Most women accept that genitalia matter in the medical world.

Most women accept that a lot of the stereotypes we see in western society are regressive and old fashioned.

Most women would not be comfortable sharing a dressing room with an intact male.

Most women have experienced sexual harassment by make bodied people.

Expecting women to accept that people born male can be women is like expecting people to believe in a God. It's personal. You can't force it.

Yes. I don't think there is much more to be said.

I have yet to see OP discuss the impact of male inclusion on women's and girl's sports.

Care to discuss why you think that the advantages that males have over females should be ignored for sports?

@ErrolTheDragon

I think there's one strand of agreement with the OP: transmen are female, and are liable to suffer from the same sex based oppressions as any other female.

All the significant oppressions women suffer from are sex based - gender constructs are, in fact, a large part of the oppression and control mechanism.

What oppressions are fundamentally due to someone's gender, rather than their sex?

Yes, just more conflation of sex and gender and gender identity.

Sex and gender can’t be totally different things and the same thing. And yet both be completely different to gender identity.