Trans rights are a part of women's rights

[ASugar]

Trans people don't negatively affect women's rights. They are a part of the women's rights. Both trans men and trans women experience oppression based on being female/a woman.

It's not for me in this thread to go off topic on examples of reasonable accomodation, but if there is thread, I'd be happy to contribute if I have anything useful to say.

Hey DadJoke. This thread is actually about women's rights and sports is part of the discussion of women's rights. This is right on topic. Feel free to contribute in any way that you wish.

Apologies. A woman or a man. I might be going off topic so I’ll stop here if I need to but it’s nice to be able to discuss this amicably!

So you said that gender isn’t about expression but it is about being able to answer ‘yes’ to ‘are you a woman’ (or a man of course in this context).

So my question is with gender identity theory - how do you know whether to answer yes or no?

If you are a woman - ie if I asked you if you were a woman and you said "yes" and you are from the sex class with large gametes, your gender identity is "woman," and you are cisgender according to the accepted theory

This is utter bollocks, DadJoke. If I'd been born with a penis I'd be a boy, but as it was I was born with a vagina so I was a girl, now I'm a woman. That's it.

Like many others on these threads, I've suffered dysphoria, and wondered if I was "really" a boy. It's taken me years to realise that I don't have an internal gender idenity at all, just a dearly-held wish that I'd been born into a society that socialised and treated boys and girls the same.

You can squawk all you like that we ascribe to your religion, whether we like it or not, but that doesn't make it reality.

I am happy to make accomodations for people with relgious and pseudoreligious beliefs such as "I don't believe in climate change" "spleens don't exist" or "I don't believe that everyone has a gender identity." It really depends if those beliefs impinge on other peoples' rights.

I am happy to accept that people who believe in God, or disembodied gendered souls exist and that there are whole ideological frameworks around these beliefs, but these non-scientific concepts aren't generally relevant to me, except when people are trying to force them on me.

Am I to understand that gender is ascribed to me without my consent?

It's a good question, Claudia, that I suspect the likes of DadJoke haven't really thought through fully.

If I'm asked the question 'are you a woman?' how do I know what to answer? On the gender critical view it's easy - I'm a woman if I'm female, and that's simple to verify. But trans supporters mean something different when they use the term 'woman', and they deny it has anything to do with a female body at all. So the very question' are you a woman' can't be answered, until I know what that is supposed to refer to !

When I was a teenager, there were punks, goths, cyber goths, emo's, scene kids, chavs, fuck bois in jeans, leather jackets, and trainers, posh kids, nerds, geeks, the popular kids who knew and got on with everyone, etc. Chav males wore a lot of pink, scene kid fellas would spend hours on hair, make up and selfies. Etc.

All these "tribes" had both gay and bi teens, many had really a really androgynous/unisex style, but there were few "trans" as we think of it today. Plenty of blossoming fetishes all around though, and what we'd have called "trannies" (who knew they were male, and had penises, and liked using them).

Now I look at teenagers sometimes and it seems like they're either wearing the girls uniform of high waisted jeans, crop top, white trainers, big lips and eyelashes, or the boys uniform of cropped/faded hair, jeans and shorts, t-shirt, dark coloured sports jacket and trainers.

Well this is exactly my point! And I don’t know how to ask without being accused of trying to do a ‘gotcha’ but I am genuinely flummoxed by a word, that I lived all my life, thinking that it is exactly the same category as a ‘sow’ or a ‘doe’ being used to describe.. well... I don’t know!!

@Kettlingur

I believe you believe in your gender identity, in the same way I believe some people believe in their eternal soul. But there is simply no way for you to force me to believe in the same things you do. The best you can do is comply me (by law, or by other kinds of force) to momentarily pretend that I believe.

I believe you don't believe in gender identity, in the same way people don't believe masks protect you from COVID. But I don't think it's starting point for policy.

DadJoke your attempts to cast women who don't have an internal gender identity as somehow "anti-science" are laughably transparent.

You are flogging your religion here for all its' worth, but very few want to buy.

Your intolerance of other people having different beliefs to you may then be the source of your problem.

You are never going to either convince all women to comply, or punish them all sufficiently into complying (for long). Live and let live is a two way action.

@Claudia84

Apologies. A woman or a man. I might be going off topic so I’ll stop here if I need to but it’s nice to be able to discuss this amicably!

So you said that gender isn’t about expression but it is about being able to answer ‘yes’ to ‘are you a woman’ (or a man of course in this context).

So my question is with gender identity theory - how do you know whether to answer yes or no?

Do you actually have a problem answering the question? How do people "know" what their sexuality is? How do you know if you are conscious? If you are happy?

Almost no one has a problem answering this question. It's not a real objection.

DadJoke is a word with no meaning basis for policy?

What about gender, a feeling no one can describe, no one can determine or explain. That a basis for policy?

How we even going to use gender for any type of law or space when so few people have got one, and the ones that do have thousands to choose from? Will we have loos for all the genders?

Of course I dont expect a reply, there is no answers is there

You might want to tell Stonewall that trans rights are part of women's rights. Because they don't seem to be doing any campaigning for women's rights. Which surely they would if they believed your OP....🤷‍♀️

@FlibbertyGiblets

Am I to understand that gender is ascribed to me without my consent?

It seems that some believe so, yes. Much like people who behaved very like them used to impose Christianity on people who didn't want it way back when.

@MichelleofzeResistance

Your intolerance of other people having different beliefs to you may then be the source of your problem.

You are never going to either convince all women to comply, or punish them all sufficiently into complying (for long). Live and let live is a two way action.

If you don't want to believe that gender identity is real, you be you. If your irrational belief impacts the rights of other people, then I'll state my case. The idea that I could, or would want to "punish" anyone is laughable.

If you are a woman - ie if I asked you if you were a woman and you said "yes" and you are from the sex class with large gametes, your gender identity is "woman," and you are cisgender according to the accepted theory.

So, my gender identity is simply my acceptance of the fact that I am a woman based on biology?

You're actually saying that's what constitutes a gender identity? A recognition of reality? That's barely worth giving a name to.

A trans woman I know is well validated by her circle of friends. She likes her lager, though, and whenever she drinks she tends to obsess whether everyone "really REALLY believes" she is a woman, or if people are just kind to her.

And that is the problem, isn't it. If you ask the population at large, in a situation where they can answer honestly, you know the answer you're going to get. So that's why all this compelled speech is needed.

@FlibbertyGiblets

Am I to understand that gender is ascribed to me without my consent?

By whom? If you mean that medical bodies will consider you to be a cisgender woman (if you are one), then, well, yes they will. But as a patient, I'm sure they'd respect your beliefs and not use terminology you are uncomfortable with.

@Kettlingur

A trans woman I know is well validated by her circle of friends. She likes her lager, though, and whenever she drinks she tends to obsess whether everyone "really REALLY believes" she is a woman, or if people are just kind to her.

And that is the problem, isn't it. If you ask the population at large, in a situation where they can answer honestly, you know the answer you're going to get. So that's why all this compelled speech is needed.

Not long ago, racists were saying similar things. But social norms change.

If by "compelled speech" you mean it's not acceptable to use racist, homophobic, ablelist or transphobic slurs, then in certain contexts (for example the workplace) that's true.

So... we are still stuck on defining terms and not discussing the impacts of trans rights on the rights of women and girl's?

Just goes to show how important getting definition is for making laws around those rights.

If you don't want to believe that gender identity is real, you be you. If your irrational belief impacts the rights of other people, then I'll state my case. The idea that I could, or would want to "punish" anyone is laughable.

A number of Women have been punished for refusing to accept your beliefs - based on their own not-at-all-irrational thinking - by people who talk like you @DadJoke. Your posts are starting to cross a line I think.

@PheasantPlucker1

DadJoke is a word with no meaning basis for policy?

What about gender, a feeling no one can describe, no one can determine or explain. That a basis for policy?

How we even going to use gender for any type of law or space when so few people have got one, and the ones that do have thousands to choose from? Will we have loos for all the genders?

Of course I dont expect a reply, there is no answers is there

Can you explain your proprioception? Your sexuality? Are they made up concepts? People know their gender identity - it's literally a descriptor of how you answer a question based on your own perception.

The vast majority of people know their gender, and all of them have a gender identity - even if it's non-binary. In most cases, this aligns with their sex assigned at birth. This is a non-argument. No one is calling for "loos for all the genders," nor will they. This is, and always has been, about excluding trans women.

@Impatiens

If you don't want to believe that gender identity is real, you be you. If your irrational belief impacts the rights of other people, then I'll state my case. The idea that I could, or would want to "punish" anyone is laughable.

A number of Women have been punished for refusing to accept your beliefs - based on their own not-at-all-irrational thinking - by people who talk like you @DadJoke. Your posts are starting to cross a line I think.

She was talking directly about me, not people in general. She didn't say "women are punished" she said "you" If I am going to be accused of "punshing" people, then I will deny it, because I am entirely opposed to it.