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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Trans rights are a part of women's rights

999 replies

ASugar · 04/03/2021 09:16

Trans people don't negatively affect women's rights. They are a part of the women's rights. Both trans men and trans women experience oppression based on being female/a woman.

OP posts:
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Winesalot · 04/03/2021 16:46

Is cisgender in general use by psychological and medical professionals and pretty much every national and international body? Of course it is.

yes, in usage in and around their discussion about 'gender'.

Mind you, there are also some issues with some of the treatments being advocated for with some of those you have linked. So, like every else in the world, a grain of salt is needed.

Sophoclesthefox · 04/03/2021 16:49

Check the first few pages, sources and titles, and you'll see that's not the case here.

Check it for what?

Your APA link is a 404 by the way. You might at least do us the honour of live links we can actually talk about.

I’ll bite, though. Yes, cisgender is a term currently used by many people. However, the flaw at the heart of it is that it’s used by people who will look you dead in the eye and say “it is of the utmost importance that you address people as they wish to be addressed, as this is how you signal that their identity is real, and that you respect and value them”.

Then when a feminist says “I’m not cisgender, because I don’t have a gender identity, so it can’t align with my sex”, that same person will then tell you “it doesn’t matter if you feel it applies or not, it’s just who you are.”

Does that honestly make sense to you?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/03/2021 16:54

I am sure there are some articles about evolution which deny the fact of it, too.

Yes, or forecasting the future with goat entrails. There can be multiple instances referring to anything. It's not an answer. You need to back your position up. You have not done so.

And no, it is not in general use by the average member of the medical profession, unless they are directly involved in gender identity medicine.

Political posturing around this issue, and the influence of trans lobby groups, means that official bodies may adopt the language of gender ideologists. But many people don't have a clue what "cis" means, nor would they wish to adopt it as a label.

Impatiens · 04/03/2021 17:01

Yes, cisgender is a term currently used by many people. However, the flaw at the heart of it is that it’s used by people who will look you dead in the eye and say “it is of the utmost importance that you address people as they wish to be addressed, as this is how you signal that their identity is real, and that you respect and value them”.

Then when a feminist says “I’m not cisgender, because I don’t have a gender identity, so it can’t align with my sex”, that same person will then tell you “it doesn’t matter if you feel it applies or not, it’s just who you are.”

Indeed.

MrsWooster · 04/03/2021 17:02

Haven’t read the full thread, just the op’s posts, but the hairs are standing up on the back of my neck at the apparent latest salvo from TRAs... as ‘womxn’ has now been disowned, it looks like ‘trans’ is to be disowned. This will leave trans people in ‘possession’ of the term women /men, since the accurate definitions are deemed offensive. This is send-up-a-flare time, surely?

DadJoke · 04/03/2021 17:02

@PheasantPlucker1

DadJoke can you explain how someone with no recognisable or identifiable gender is cisgender?

I acceot some people are cisgender, some are transgender, but then theres a huge amount, like me, who have no gender.

Can you accept we are not all cis or trans?

It's true that some non-binary people don't consider themselves cis gender or trans gender, but that is not the same as saying that gender identity doesn't exist.

If you are a woman - ie if I asked you if you were a woman and you said "yes" and you are from the sex class with large gametes, your gender identity is "woman," and you are cisgender according to the accepted theory.

You are more than welcome not to believe in whatever you don't want to believe. The reason that the terminology upsets you is because it includes transgender people. If you accept that gender identity is real, it leads to acknowledgement that transgender peoples' identity is as valid as cisgender peoples'.

The terminology around sexuality didn't really develop until the late 1800s - but it was still describing something real. Later, there were lots of heterosexual people who objected to being called heterosexual, too, because it normalised homosexuality. It seems so archaic now!

Cailleach1 · 04/03/2021 17:07

[quote DadJoke]@Asugar Mumsnet Women's Rights forum is a hotbed of gender critical feminists who are still waiting for the third and fourth wave of intersectional feminism to carry them towards the shore. They don't believe that gender identity is something that's been accepted and studied by the scientific and medical establishment. When someone here says "they don't have a gender identity" they don't mean they are no-binary or agender, they literally believe that it doesn't exist. Because of this, they find "cisgender" a term used in more than 30,000 uncontroversial scientific papers offensive, the offensive being that it acknowledges that gender identity is real and trans women are women, as if it makes them somehow less of a someone.

They are in the same camp as the religious right and quote articles from right wing papers disparaging transgender people. They patronise trans men by saying "you're one of us, really." When discussing the danger of trans women as a class, they rely on anecdotes, not the evidence that trans women are not a danger as a class to cis women as a class.

A huge proportion of the threads here are directed at trans women rather than the primary sources of female oppression.

The prevelance of gender critical feminists in the UK is not reflected in Ireland, the States or most of Europe. They lovingly quote Germaine Greer who once said that transwomen "‘ghastly parodies’ of women" and Bindell who said "I don't have a problem with men disposing of their genitals, but it does not make them women, in the same way that shoving a bit of vacuum hose down your 501s does not make you a man." The thing is, most of the posters here would agree with the sentiment, if not the wording of those quotes.

For an overview from an American perspective of why gender critical feminists have such a big platform here but not say in Ireland, read this article. CW: contains the T-word.[/quote]
You want to talk about Ireland and women's position. Anything to say on the brutalisation of women and children by a previous men centred ideology? Or how the small enquiry into part of it is being handled by a practically 80% male Dáil? How this so progressive men's parliament has treated the Survivors? How there seems to be attempts to get rid of the evidence of past wrongs committed on women by the Church and State. Today's men heaping hurt upon Irish women, on top of the hurt caused by the previous generations of men. Why should we think there is respect afforded women in relation to this issue? This new imported Ideology from the US via Yogyakarta which was quietly introduced in by a practically 80% male Dáil, without the general public's knowledge, never mind approval. The Irish state has a record of acting atrociously towards women and girls in the name of ideology. In a country where Savita was left to die in a hospital less than a decade ago. Don't give me your nonsense.

It is only becoming apparent to Irish women what the consequences are; what with two sex offenders and a violent thug incarcerated amongst the women prisoners. Another clue with the dreadful letter that the self-serving, career activists signed to try and kibosh people who 'defending their biology'. Particular pot shot at women who defend their rights. They must look in envy at the past where the merest County Manager of a male could have women incarcerated on his say so. Just to show that Irish men who only centre their own rights in a male centred ideology are not necessarily friends or allies to Irish women.

Funnily enough, the decriminalisation of homosexuality in Ireland was roughly three decades behind the UK. Would you have said that Ireland shouldn't be importing those rights either? Because the Oireachtas was influenced by the Ideology we had at the time.

I think it is fabulous what the women in the UK are trying withstand this assault on their right to parity of esteem. Many Irish women think likewise. It is a source of succour and hope, and a reminder that universal human rights are universal. Even women's! Hopefully, the empowerment of Irish women in their own state won't take as long as the three decades lag behind the UK that it took for the decriminalisation of homosexuality. Of course, Irish women were treated worse than British women, even this very decade as the 80% male Dáil didn't protect sex as a characteristic in Irish law. I don't think women or their rights were very high on these men's agenda.

Reminds me that I have to subscribe to the many grassroots Organisation which have been set up by Irish women. I only signed up to two.

I remember an incident where some North American fellow who attacked an Irish woman online with some vitriolic and fairly nasty invective. Maybe she was doxxed by him. She was was pointing out that a sex offender was housed in prison amongst Irish women. There may be more than one of these N.American peeps actively subjecting Irish women to online vitriol. Strangely, I don't think Irish men stepped in to hush their bro who was attacking an Irish woman.

Claudia84 · 04/03/2021 17:10

@DadJoke I don’t understand the comparison to homosexuality that people keep making, although am willing to learn.
Homosexuality is something that can be defined as same sex attraction. Gender identity seems to be a feeling where you feel feminine or masculine and therefore use woman or man to describe that feeling, rather than using man or woman to describe how your biological self is arranged.
I can completely understand therefore why someone might have an issue with using ‘woman’ to describe acting or feeling feminine.
Surely that’s what’s archaic??

DadJoke · 04/03/2021 17:13

@Sophoclesthefox

Check the first few pages, sources and titles, and you'll see that's not the case here.

Check it for what?

Your APA link is a 404 by the way. You might at least do us the honour of live links we can actually talk about.

I’ll bite, though. Yes, cisgender is a term currently used by many people. However, the flaw at the heart of it is that it’s used by people who will look you dead in the eye and say “it is of the utmost importance that you address people as they wish to be addressed, as this is how you signal that their identity is real, and that you respect and value them”.

Then when a feminist says “I’m not cisgender, because I don’t have a gender identity, so it can’t align with my sex”, that same person will then tell you “it doesn’t matter if you feel it applies or not, it’s just who you are.”

Does that honestly make sense to you?

Sorry! www.apa.org/pi/lgbt/resources/sexuality-definitions.pdf

I am happy to make accomodations for people with relgious and pseudoreligious beliefs such as "I don't believe in climate change" "spleens don't exist" or "I don't believe that everyone has a gender identity." It really depends if those beliefs impinge on other peoples' rights.

If you religious beliefs mean you don't believe in same sex marriage, that's fine, unless you stop other people getting married. It's fine to think trans women aren't women, as longer as you don't stop them using the bathroom of their choice.

Now, this isn't entirely fair, because sex is realy, and sex is also a protected category, like religion, and there needs to be an accomodation, for example, in sport for the differences between cisgender and transgender people, but it has to be reasonable.

If we start from a place where we acknowledge that both gender identity and sex are real and protected, we can move forward. If your default answer is TWANT and TMANM and they should be excluded by default, we can't.

Wearywithteens · 04/03/2021 17:13

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn at the poster's request.

Winesalot · 04/03/2021 17:14

Cailleach1

I think it is pertinent to also bring up the latest tweets by an executive of Amnasty as well. It did awaken the realities for many women around the world. Thanks Colm.

DadJoke · 04/03/2021 17:15

[quote Claudia84]@DadJoke I don’t understand the comparison to homosexuality that people keep making, although am willing to learn.
Homosexuality is something that can be defined as same sex attraction. Gender identity seems to be a feeling where you feel feminine or masculine and therefore use woman or man to describe that feeling, rather than using man or woman to describe how your biological self is arranged.
I can completely understand therefore why someone might have an issue with using ‘woman’ to describe acting or feeling feminine.
Surely that’s what’s archaic??[/quote]
Gender identity is not the same as gender expression of gender roles. If you answer the question "Are you a women?" yes, that's your gender identity.

Some women "feel feminine" or "feel masculine" sometimes. It's not the same thing.

Impatiens · 04/03/2021 17:16

If you are a woman - ie if I asked you if you were a woman and you said "yes" and you are from the sex class with large gametes, your gender identity is "woman," and you are cisgender according to the accepted theory.

No. You can be from the sex class female without having a 'gender identity'. And the theory is not 'the accepted theory', it's just another theory/ideology.

Winesalot · 04/03/2021 17:17

there needs to be an accomodation, for example, in sport for the differences between cisgender and transgender people, but it has to be reasonable.

Please expand on this point. What do you believe is a 'reasonable' accommodation?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/03/2021 17:22

No. You can be from the sex class female without having a 'gender identity'. And the theory is not 'the accepted theory', it's just another theory/ideology.

Indeed.

Impatiens · 04/03/2021 17:22

If we start from a place where we acknowledge that both gender identity and sex are real and protected, we can move forward. If your default answer is TWANT and TMANM and they should be excluded by default, we can't.

Depends what you mean by 'move forward'. If you mean 'accept gender ideology and the loss of Women's sex-based rights' then you've already been told numerous times that many Women will never accept this. Never. So moving forward for those women (and allies) means court action to stop these destructive ideas being forced on us.

Claudia84 · 04/03/2021 17:23

@DadJoke
“ Gender identity is not the same as gender expression of gender roles. If you answer the question "Are you a women?" yes, that's your gender identity.”

I’m honestly lost now. How would I know if I am or not? Or can that only be answered by someone who doesn’t identify?

DadJoke · 04/03/2021 17:24

@Winesalot

there needs to be an accomodation, for example, in sport for the differences between cisgender and transgender people, but it has to be reasonable.

Please expand on this point. What do you believe is a 'reasonable' accommodation?

It's not for me in this thread to go off topic on examples of reasonable accomodation, but if there is thread, I'd be happy to contribute if I have anything useful to say.
Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/03/2021 17:29

If you accept that gender identity is real, it leads to acknowledgement that transgender peoples' identity is as valid as cisgender peoples'.

But I don't accept that gender identity is real in the way you think it is, I don't have any problem with what other people think about their personal "identity", but it doesn't have any bearing on what sex they are. Which also doesn't matter most of the time. But sometimes it does, and none of this endless posturing, asserting and navel gazing means anything on these occasions. The fact is that most women in the U.K., as per various polls, are happy to live and let live, but don't want male bodies in their single sex spaces. Because it violates their privacy and dignity. Don't pretend it's not sexist to handwave that away because it's inconvenient for you.

JustGotHere · 04/03/2021 17:31

All this questioning of whether not everyone has a gender identity seems like arguing whether or not we everyone has an id, ego and superego. They’re just concepts, ideas.

GoodQueenAlysanne · 04/03/2021 17:33

Transmen have womens rights. Also, many transmen are young women, some under 18, so they'll have children's rights too (and a childs capacity to consent to medical intervention).

DadJoke · 04/03/2021 17:33

[quote Claudia84]@DadJoke
“ Gender identity is not the same as gender expression of gender roles. If you answer the question "Are you a women?" yes, that's your gender identity.”

I’m honestly lost now. How would I know if I am or not? Or can that only be answered by someone who doesn’t identify?[/quote]
I don't think I understand your question. How would you know if you are or not what?

Kettlingur · 04/03/2021 17:35

I believe you believe in your gender identity, in the same way I believe some people believe in their eternal soul. But there is simply no way for you to force me to believe in the same things you do. The best you can do is comply me (by law, or by other kinds of force) to momentarily pretend that I believe.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/03/2021 17:36

I guess we will have to move forward without your help, DadJoke.

PheasantPlucker1 · 04/03/2021 17:36

DadJoke a woman.

Although I may as well say a Rzjhibit, as that makes as much sense to you as the word woman.