Trans rights are a part of women's rights

[ASugar]

Trans people don't negatively affect women's rights. They are a part of the women's rights. Both trans men and trans women experience oppression based on being female/a woman.

Yes, "separate but equal" has never been a great look in any context

I'd take a different tack to Just and point out that we aren't talking about people who are equal. We are talking about, on the one hand, a group of people who usually have significant physical, social, economic and structural advantages over women, and whose choices about gender identity have been backed up by many major institutions. They hold the power. If that wasn't bad enough, at least half of the people we are discussing (transwomen in prison) have the kind of mentality that relishes wielding power over others, as they are rapists and murderers.

Contrast that against women in prison, most of whom have absolutely no physical, social, economic or structural power, and who have on the whole committed nonviolent crimes. The vast majority of them have experienced significant violence against them (child abuse, or DV). They hold very little power.

They are not equal. In this case, it is entirely reasonable for the second group to ask that the first group - who hold such vastly disproportionate power - to be kept separate from them.

It is not the job of feminism/feminists/FWR to always, in every situation, be nice/be kind/be ‘supportive’ of every individual. Nor is there any obligation on our part to be accepting of every notion, however misguided. Where we see the need to challenge, we will do so.

Here we engage in robust discussion, with arguments based on reality, fact, and interpretation of actual, quantifiable data. We rely on critical thought and analysis, not soundbites or woolly, vague, indefinable word salads that have no discernible meaning.

You have to be able to qualify and/or quantify your assertions to back them up, if you are to be taken seriously. If that is too robust for you then you genuinely do not have to participate. But don’t try to claim that we’re not willing to debate, or that we haven’t welcomed discussion.

Sometimes extremely difficult discussions have to be had. Difficult truths must be told. However much that vexes you, that is what happens here.

Human rights are human rights.

Women’s rights (and protections in Law) are women’s rights (and protections in Law).

Trans rights are trans rights.

Sex is immutable - unchangeable fact.

Fabulous post 👏

@Ereshkigalangcleg

it is their human right to do it.

They can compete with the other members of their biological sex class. That is fairness. And I disagree that it's a "human right" to compete in sport. By that argument there should be a handicap system in athletics so non sporty me can compete.

Yes, I'm a really slow runner. If it's my human right to do competitive sport presumably it's only right that I be able to compete at the local nursery's sports day? Those are the only people I'd have a hope of actually 'competing' against.

Yes, or I'd like to compete in the 100 m against Usain Bolt, only I get to start a minute before him. Only fair.

I get what you’re saying. On the flip side when you say someone is unable to hold up - that is just your group perception though , based on the fact that no one agreed with that person. It doesn’t make their argument invalid. I don’t have anyone to back me up but that doesn’t mean that what I have to say is less relevant.
As an example now it is me versus I don’t even know how many of you- you are ready to keep going and challenge my posts until we run out of space I guess?
At some point people have to leave , go back to work/ looking after children/ real life.
They also might see there is nothing to accomplish , perhaps they just wanted to tell you how they feel and that was the only purpose?
Perhaps one person will question their behaviour out of a few hundred - I guess that’s always something,
So the poster leaves and you as a group then hail victory and say oh well another one ‘popped up here’ and disappeared because we proved smarter.

Queen I can only speak for myself, rather than a group perspective, however, when I ask specific questions, people like yourself tend to either not answer, call me names or flounce off, a few examples of questions I have never had answers to are this:

What is a woman?
What do I am a woman have in common with a TW?
Is it right that my daughters should be forced to share changing rooms with male bodied people?
What happens to Muslim women or other women of faith who's religion prevents them from sharing intimate spaces with males?
Should women in prison be forced to share with male bodied people?
Is it fair that women are loosing sports scholarships and records to males?
Is it fair that positions created to include women are now being taken up by males so again we are back to under representation of women?

These are just a few of the problems I see with TWAW if you can answer any of these questions, then honestly that would be great, but I must also remind you that if you don't completely affirm TW right to be recognised as completely female then you are bigoted and transphobic, as we are told on a regular basis when we ask these questions.

@ASugar

Trans people don't negatively affect women's rights. They are a part of the women's rights. Both trans men and trans women experience oppression based on being female/a woman.

How can trans men and women be part of women's rights? Either trans women are women and trans men are men or trans women are male and trans men are female. It can't cut both ways.

Trans men are part of women's right what with them being female but trans women sorry but no. They are a part of the male half of the species the half not the female.

They are not equal. In this case, it is entirely reasonable for the second group to ask that the first group - who hold such vastly disproportionate power - to be kept separate from them

I suspect that being American, Dadjoke is referencing segregation in the U.S.

OP I have personal experience of a transwoman's rights being placed ahead of my rights and therefore negatively affecting me. How can you argue that I am wrong about my own personal experience?

@Sophoclesthefox

I missed the vaccine dig 🤣 good grief. Literally never seen an anti vaxxer on feminist chat. We’re all about the science. What a fatuous remark.

How many anti-abortionists have you seen?

I mean given we are in bed with the US Christian Right we shouldn't be able to move for them on FWR...

They do seem weirdly thin on the ground, Red. Maybe when they do arrive, they’ll bring all that cash we’re supposed to get?

I am actually very interested in these 30,000 papers. Could we please have a link, I assume that they have been collated and stored where we can access them? It is the second time I have seen that number referenced so I would expect that there are grouped together somewhere.

30,000 instances, not 30,000 papers.

scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=cisgender&btnG=

I can remember being excluded from a pub along with my Nigerian friend in the 70s. Her brother got in though.

I just found 121,000 results for “homeopathy” on Google scholar.

Does that mean homeopathy is scientifically rigorous?

scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=homeopathy&oq=homeopat

Factually that is just not true. It impacts on female rights to sex based services and sex based private spaces.

DadJoke can you explain how someone with no recognisable or identifiable gender is cisgender?

I acceot some people are cisgender, some are transgender, but then theres a huge amount, like me, who have no gender.

Can you accept we are not all cis or trans?

1,030,00 results for “souls”

Is “cisgender” less real than “souls”?

scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=souls&btnG=

30,000 instances, not 30,000 papers.

oh. Sorry. That is hardly compelling evidence is it?

I am sure I could find a plentitude of instances that would back up many theories that are unsubstantiated but passionately advocated for.

@Winesalot

30,000 instances, not 30,000 papers.

oh. Sorry. That is hardly compelling evidence is it?

I am sure I could find a plentitude of instances that would back up many theories that are unsubstantiated but passionately advocated for.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't just listing the mentions possibly cover quite a few which say that, eg, there's no scientific evidence whatsoever for... ?

There are 13,900 references for the Loch Ness Monster. I'm not sure that proves Nessie exists.

Op, did you miss out on the biology lessons whilst at school?

@teawamutu

I am sure I could find a plentitude of instances that would back up many theories that are unsubstantiated but passionately advocated for.

I am sure there are some articles about evolution which deny the fact of it, too.

Is cisgender in general use by psychological and medical professionals and pretty much every national and international body? Of course it is.

APA
John Hopkins
BPS

Pick any reputable scientific body.

[quote Sophoclesthefox]1,030,00 results for “souls”

Is “cisgender” less real than “souls”?

scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=souls&btnG=[/quote]
Check the first few pages, sources and titles, and you'll see that's not the case here.

There are 13,900 references for the Loch Ness Monster. I'm not sure that proves Nessie exists.

I do like a Nessie theory!

DadJoke do you accept not everyone has a gender?

Some people are neither cis, or trans.

What do I am a woman have in common with a TW?

I have thought about this question often. And have reached the conclusion that I do not have anything in common. That's not to say I don't wish them well. And we may find common interests on an individual level. But my experiences and biological reality as a woman are not remotely the same as a transwomens experiences and biological reality.