Trans rights are a part of women's rights

[ASugar]

Trans people don't negatively affect women's rights. They are a part of the women's rights. Both trans men and trans women experience oppression based on being female/a woman.

And if you don't have a gender identity that by definition would mean you are transgender

No. The doctrine of gender identity is a faith-based belief system. If I don't accept the label "cis" as imposed on me by you, it does not follow that I must be "trans". Just as because I'm not a Christian, it does not follow that I must be a Muslim. I am an atheist, and that means I do not simply reject the belief in one religion but in all religions.

At its heart, the doctrine of gender identity has one of two premises to support its claims:

1. male souls and female souls

2. male brains and female brains

The first is immaterial and requires a belief in disembodied metaphysical entities that I as an atheist do not share. The second is material and requires scientific evidence to prove it. Having read the available body of research in neurology, there is no such evidence. I therefore reject the doctrine in its entirety.

Now I respect your right to believe in the doctrine of gender identity, just as I respect my friend's right to truly, deeply believe that God is good and that she is blessed by His existence. It gives her great comfort and joy and strength and I am happy for her that it does. She prays for me to see the light and I understand that, too.

So I have no problem with you holding the belief you do. As long as you accept that I don't believe what you believe and understand that those not sharing your personal beliefs are not hateful, bigoted or phobic.

And just as I object when the doctrine of gender identity informs legislation and policymaking and so threatens my rights, I object when my friend's religious beliefs interfere with my rights. Thus we stand on opposite sides on several issues, still without believing the other to be evil.

If we could agree on this much, that those who don't share a belief in gender identity, are not automatically hateful, bigoted and phobic and do not wish the believers ill, we would probably have a much better engagement going forward.

@Kettlingur

people have a right to express their opinion without having to back it up

Yes, well, but you do realise other people will then assess your opinion accordingly? Usually adults debating any topic will at least try to have something substantial behind their opinions.

You all mimic and repeat each other ousting the same argument over and over. It’s not a debate. It’s an echo chamber.

How can you assess anyone’s argument if you only believe in one based on sex and genitals.
You demand evidence to someone’s argument but not because you are open to changing your mind. You demand it so that you (backed up by your online friends) can shout it down.

just a reminder about who the bullies are here. I dont think it's the women of FWR who have not threatened anyone/doxed anyone/suggested people choke or die in grease fires, simply that posters back up the assertions with facts and evidence

the other side however

• They have to be delivered sexual health education through the RSE programme which isn't all based on sex and biology.

How the hell does that work?*

My guess: the gender bread man. Google it, it was an eye opener when my child came home with it all confused what the hell she was supposed to do and did the fact she loves Star Wars now mean she should be a boy?

Stop asking everyone to define everything

Defining the word woman is central to the discussion.

What's the point in having a discussion if you can't back up your opinions with evidence, or even define the terms you are using? What are you even asking for - are you asking to be able to post and have no one respond to you?

I think it's a pretty unreasonable thing to expect.

The whole point of these discussions is that if you don’t define women in relation to their biology then how do you define them.

I have spent years in a male dominated profession battling regressive stereotypes about women. I refuse to have anyone try to define my womanhood by them now. So it is of great interest to me how people are defining what is a woman.

You all mimic and repeat each other ousting the same argument over and over. It’s not a debate. It’s an echo chamber.

Yes, I'm sure you think that. The onus is on you to make a robust argument and back up your position. It's not anyone else's responsibility.

QueenCoconut you see the same thing wherever someone posts on a board - not just MN - in order to preach at them that they're totally wrong. Same on here when a man pops up in AIBU / relationships with a complaint he's not getting enough sex, or the late and unlamented Poo Troll. You'll see far worse if you go onto Pistonheads and lecture them about cycling, or CycleChat and lecture them about helmets or pavement cyclists, or an autism community and lecture them about how neurodiversity is just a modern name for poor parenting. Talking about cake or rocks would be the least worst outcome!

I am very happy to engage with new posters and explain why I changed my mind and became gender critical. It's possible that a persuasive poster could change my mind back again.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Stop asking everyone to define everything , people have a right to express their opinion without having to back it up by whatever evidence you demand.

The definition of woman is the heart of every single one of these discussions. Damn right it's relevant.

Exactly - every single one. You are obsessed with the definition.

It makes it impossible to debate, unless the definition is changed to include trans women ( as an example) at which point I’m sure there will be a new argument to obsess about.

And if you don't have a gender identity that by definition would mean you are transgender.

This is good. The OP has now decided that I must be transgender because I don't have a gender identity.

Does this mean people will start listening to me when I say that policies should be based on sex not gender? And interestingly, I am a woman, so that makes me a transgender woman.

Did the OP really mean that? It's almost as though none of this makes sense.

How can you assess anyone’s argument if you only believe in one based on sex and genitals.
You demand evidence to someone’s argument but not because you are open to changing your mind. You demand it so that you (backed up by your online friends) can shout it down

Are people supposed to nod and agree then with things that are known not to be true?

How can you assess anyone’s argument if you only believe in one based on sex and genitals.

I can't pretend to believe in an ideology I don't share, sorry. The prevailing view on FWR is the logical, scientific argument and the viewpoint shared by most of the world's population. If you can't actually define "women" in a non circular way, doesn't that tell you something?

and the definition of women should be changed to accommodate biological men because? I mean what is in it for women to include men in the definition of women? in what way does that help women do fight the patriarchy and out dated stereotypes of what women should be like?

It makes it impossible to debate

If you find it "impossible to debate" when people are using clear, coherent and consistent terminology, that might be a sign that you don't have a good argument.

It makes it impossible to debate, unless the definition is changed to include trans women

What is a "trans woman"? What are they identifying with? How can they be included if you can't answer the second question in a non circular way?

@Ereshkigalangcleg

You all mimic and repeat each other ousting the same argument over and over. It’s not a debate. It’s an echo chamber.

Yes, I'm sure you think that. The onus is on you to make a robust argument and back up your position. It's not anyone else's responsibility.

Why because you say that? To adhere to your rules ‘ your conversation culture?

No other group demands specific behaviours when a new poster joins. Just this group here. Hence my feedback.

You might be intelligent, incredibly smart or whatever else you say. But you also come across as unfriendly and closed minded.

I ( any many others) don’t feel welcome here as a woman - that’s already a failure on your behalf as a feminist group.

It makes it impossible to debate, unless the definition is changed to include trans women

So either we agree with you or no debate? And yet we are the ones who aren't open to debate?

Stop asking everyone to define everything , people have a right to express their opinion without having to back it up by whatever evidence you demand.

When discussing the laws that uphold the protections of women and girls against sexist discrimination because of their sexed bodies AND to progress the needs of those women and girls, I would have thought that clear definition is exactly the starting place for the discussion.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

It makes it impossible to debate, unless the definition is changed to include trans women

What is a "trans woman"? What are they identifying with? How can they be included if you can't answer the second question in a non circular way?

They can be included by people/ women like me including them. I am not the only one.

Also not ‘what is’ but ‘who is’

How can you assess anyone’s argument if you only believe in one based on sex and genitals. You demand evidence to someone’s argument but not because you are open to changing your mind.

But this is it, isn't it? It's not as if someone can argue me out of being Catholic into being Sikh or complain that I only believe in Catholicism?

Some people have the beliefs around gender identity. Some people believe equally strongly in sex based biological thinking. You can't argue people out of their beliefs and realities on either side.

So the only answer is mutual tolerance. Which will involve accepting that some women will retain sex based thinking and will need sex based provisions kept and respected alongside mixed sex inclusive provisions. That's diversity. That's intersectionality. That's respecting and accommodating all needs in a tolerant, kind way.

You might be intelligent, incredibly smart or whatever else you say. But you also come across as unfriendly and closed minded.

I've spent a lot of time thinking about these issues. Years. I have read all sorts of sources on all sides of the argument. I'm not convinced by gender identity ideology. If you have an argument I haven't considered, I'll gladly listen. But the definition of woman is a critical element.

Expecting me to be nice without the same courtesy being extended to me is a bit rich, really. And an appeal to female socialisation that I doubt a man would get.

@Winesalot

Stop asking everyone to define everything , people have a right to express their opinion without having to back it up by whatever evidence you demand.

When discussing the laws that uphold the protections of women and girls against sexist discrimination because of their sexed bodies AND to progress the needs of those women and girls, I would have thought that clear definition is exactly the starting place for the discussion.

Some people don’t come here to discuss laws. They come here to ask you as a group why you are so difficult to engage with. It’s nothing to do with the law and yet you still go back to asking for definitions.

If I don’t have a gender identity I’m transgender? Brill, I’ve being working since I was 16, I’m now 52. Where do I apply for the 20% salary earned by me?