Trans rights are a part of women's rights

[ASugar]

Trans people don't negatively affect women's rights. They are a part of the women's rights. Both trans men and trans women experience oppression based on being female/a woman.

Actual human rights don't override safeguarding.

You argue for the right of convicted offenders to say they are women and be placed in women's prisons, I have the right to disagree with you.

We can't both be right. But you might want to question your position on womens rights at this point.

You can’t ascribe rights and protections to a group unless you can define who the members of that group are.

Also not ‘what is’ but ‘who is’

No, I was asking for a material definition of a "trans woman". "What" is an appropriate term.

I'm perfectly aware that trans people are human beings.

QueenCoconut I cant discuss things in Fench, because I dont know what the words mean.

We can not discuss things with you, unless we all know what the words you are using mean.

If youre words are meaningless, then an attempt at discussion is too. Thats why you get asked what you mean when you use the word "women".

It also not feminisms job to make people feel welcome.

@Kit19

and the definition of women should be changed to accommodate biological men because? I mean what is in it for women to include men in the definition of women? in what way does that help women do fight the patriarchy and out dated stereotypes of what women should be like?

There doesn’t have to be anything in it. It doesn’t have to help us with anything. It’s just including more people and not building walls, based on fear.

No other group demands specific behaviours when a new poster joins. Just this group here.

half a second's thought should have shown you that this is almost the exact opposite of the truth. I can't think of any group of humans that doesn't require some kind of behaviour from its members as a condition of membership.

Not that it's particularly relevant anyway, the only "group" you have joined is the forum and you are so far adhering to forum rules. I think it's very telling that you are demanding unconditional acceptance from all the women here for opinions that you can't back up with evidence, logic or reason, and that you relate this demand for unconditional acceptance to a concept of group membership.

They come here to ask you as a group why you are so difficult to engage with.
It’s nothing to do with the law and yet you still go back to asking for definitions.

Because we believe those definitions are critical. You don't have the right to decide what is important to others, and what isn't.

The main reason we discuss this issue on the feminist board, is because ill thought through laws have been passed worldwide, which haven't considered the needs of women and girls as a sex class.

Yet the same group of people repeat the SAME two arguments over and over and over on every single discussion:
1. Woman is an adult female
2. Women are at risk of predatory men attacking them in shared spaces like prisons etc

Oh yeah...I was horrified, HORRIFIED I tell you, when I found this here feminist board and saw these uppity feminists thinking they know what a woman is. How dare they realise that women's oppression is based on biology, and not some feelings in their heads.

Imagine my shock when I saw these so called feminists thinking that vulnerable women in prisons have the right not to be raped and sexually assaulted by men they've been banged up with against their will. Won't someone think of the human rights of the rapists to have access to vulnerable victims, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, please for the love of GOD!

@PheasantPlucker1

QueenCoconut I cant discuss things in Fench, because I dont know what the words mean.

We can not discuss things with you, unless we all know what the words you are using mean.

If youre words are meaningless, then an attempt at discussion is too. Thats why you get asked what you mean when you use the word "women".

It also not feminisms job to make people feel welcome.

I didn’t expect to persuade you all or make you change your mind. I am not that naive. If you want to continue to participate in your echo chamber ‘discussions’ that’s I can’t stop you. I’m sure everyone feels a bit more intelligent when their words are backed by a group of like minded individuals all day long every day. You start believing that your truth is the only truth.

My words are not meaningless. It is very offensive to say that.

Because if trans women aren't women then females
who don't identify with the woman gender can't be women either.

You’ve got that arseways. If you rely on gender being the only definition of a woman then if trans women are women then females who don't identify with the woman gender can't be women either.

• then I can’t stop you

I don't really see mumsnet as 'a group'. I see it as a place for people to meet and discuss issues which are very important to them. Certainly on this board, anyway.

Some people don’t come here to discuss laws. They come here to ask you as a group why you are so difficult to engage with.

this sounds like an extremely odd use of time. And I don't think the approach you describe would get you a welcoming reception in any internet forum.

QueenCoconut it is you that has said your words have no definition, no meaning.
You have said your words are meaningless, not me.

If you disagree and I am wrong then please tell us what you mean by the word "woman"

@MarshaBradyo

Stop asking everyone to define everything

Defining the word woman is central to the discussion.

And law actually.

If you look at any law it starts with a list of legal definitions of terms included in that law so there is no ambiguity and everyone can clearly understand what is legal and what is not legal and what is covered and what is not covered to stop disputes and unfair treatment.

Definitions are absolutely a central pillar to the functioning of the law.

Which is kind of key in a debate about what rights in law we have and should have.

Asking for definitions isn't being mean or difficult. Its a fundamental basic foundation to civil society and justice! Without definitions the entire thing fails apart!

So yes, we need definitions. Otherwise we can't protect anyone in law. And we can't prosecute anyone in law for commiting criminal acts because we don't know what those criminal acts actually are!

You all mimic and repeat each other ousting the same argument over and over. It’s not a debate. It’s an echo chamber.

The posters on this board are not a hive mind and all have different aspects of this issue that they wish to discuss and assess. To state we are an echo chamber is a tactic that has been used to silence women's opinions. Is this what you are wishing to do? Are you asserting that your view has priority?

Also, the views that are expressed on this board are not controversial and may even be held by the majority of the population if the population had the same information in front of them and asked the same question. Therefore it is entirely logical that many will be the same or follow similar lines.

Again, your comment could be construed by some as a silencing tactic.

How can you assess anyone’s argument if you only believe in one based on sex and genitals. Because we are discussing the rights of women and girls as per their sexed bodies. It is very pertinent to the topic of debate.

You demand evidence to someone’s argument but not because you are open to changing your mind. You demand it so that you (backed up by your online friends) can shout it down.

If the evidence that is presented is robust, it should be able to be argued with clarity. Also, this is a great way for us to evaluate new evidence because I, for one, have not seen everything and am always happy to read what is presented.

If someone has formed their opinion, surely they are open to evaluating why others disagree with them. If it is found that they have based their opinion on false information or theories, don't you think they would like to know this? Isn't that why someone is posting on an Internet forum to have these discussions and broaden their thinking?

A genuine question , meaning no offence: is there another feminist group on mumsnet ? Perhaps this one could be renamed to gender critical feminism and another group could be used for women who want to include trans women in the ‘definition’ .
I’m conscious that if you post about feminism in general groups on MN your post might get moved to ‘feminism chat’ and that might not be the target group some posters want to engage with?

@Ereshkigalangcleg

There are guidelines that they can't present "born in the wrong body" gender identity ideology as an established fact without providing balance. I'm sure that some don't adhere to this, but eventually I'm also sure they will be challenged.

Women and girls have successfully legally challenged local authority trans guidelines for schools in about 10/15 counties, plus the CPS "hate crime" one, and they have been withdrawn.

Can a teacher/instructor state in school that someone can be born in the wrong body? What does that balance? Acceptance of yourself and setting the foundation for a happy life. Or 99 problems but that ain't one!

When I was growing up, eating disorder were a 'thing'. Anorexia led to becoming dangerously thin or throwing up after you had eaten. Thankfully 'the grown-ups (parents, teachers, health professionals etc) didn't collude with promotion of that eating disorder problem. Lots of discussions about looking after your body and eating correctly to maintain health.

Now, some children (mostly girls) were greatly adversely affected by the starvation fad, but thankfully most grown-ups who had responsibility for us were not perpetuating the problem

Equality does not imply sameness. Equality can embrace difference. Different groups have different specific needs and requirements. Traditionally marginalised groups usually campaign for, and seek access to, their own spaces and provisions.

Third spaces and provisions are the only way forward from this interminable quagmire.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

They come here to ask you as a group why you are so difficult to engage with. It’s nothing to do with the law and yet you still go back to asking for definitions.

Because we believe those definitions are critical. You don't have the right to decide what is important to others, and what isn't.

The main reason we discuss this issue on the feminist board, is because ill thought through laws have been passed worldwide, which haven't considered the needs of women and girls as a sex class.

That, and women have been banned, silenced, threatened, doxxed and deplatformed by TRAs from countless other fora.

MN is one of the few places where GC discussion is permitted. No surprise there's quite a few of us here.

Some people don’t come here to discuss laws. They come here to ask you as a group why you are so difficult to engage with.

Have you found ‘Why are you so difficult?’ A good way to start a constructive conversation before?

@ASugar

Trans people don't negatively affect women's rights. They are a part of the women's rights. Both trans men and trans women experience oppression based on being female/a woman.

Are you saying both transmen and transwomen are female? Can you please explain how they both meet that definition?

If you want to continue to participate in your echo chamber ‘discussions’ that’s I can’t stop you.

You might like to try practicing what you preach about being friendly and engaging with viewpoints other than your own.

A genuine question , meaning no offence: is there another feminist group on mumsnet ? Perhaps this one could be renamed to gender critical feminism and another group could be used for women who want to include trans women in the ‘definition’

You could try and start one somewhere. The thing is this is a Women's Rights thread; and as such it focuses on the rights and concerns of women and girls.