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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Trans rights are a part of women's rights

999 replies

ASugar · 04/03/2021 09:16

Trans people don't negatively affect women's rights. They are a part of the women's rights. Both trans men and trans women experience oppression based on being female/a woman.

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UpDownQuark · 04/03/2021 12:20

however if the term cisgender is offensive then the term transgender is equally offensive

Surely 'transgender' means you do believe that gender is a real, significant thing separate from your sex and having a point to it -- whereas a lot of people don't think that?

You can't assume they 'identify with the gender that matches their sex'. That's just incorrect. Plenty of people really, truly, don't think gender is anything more than a set of cultural assumptions about what names, hobbies and clothes go with which set of people -- a sort of shorthand for 'typical of that sex'.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/03/2021 12:22

You're not obliged to post in threads with people you don't agree with if you find it uncomfortable. It's a bit much to try to dictate the tone of others, simply because they have robust views you don't agree with. I'm not suggesting you shouldn't post here though, I'm very happy to discuss this subject with you.

I don't appreciate being called a "person with womb" though, like most women.

ChancesWhatChances · 04/03/2021 12:23

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ChancesWhatChances · 04/03/2021 12:24

Trans women are biological males - their rights are those of biological males and should remain that way. Trans men are biological females and they have the rights of biological females and should also remain that way. HTH.

Erkrie · 04/03/2021 12:25

Yes there are people with wombs or with vaginas without wombs whom your gang (and I only call it that ofter observing it acting as one) wants to excusively recognise as women

Interestingly these biological facts are still taught in primary schools. Why is that do you think? Is it because, even after all the mental gymnastics to deny women a name for their biological reality, facts still remain facts?

wellthatsunusual · 04/03/2021 12:25

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Gender identity ideology is fundamentally anti-feminist, in my view.
And mine.

It's more than anti feminist. Many women will say 'that's fine, I don't consider myself a feminist anyway'. But that's not the point. Surely even the most 'traditional' of women, the most anti feminist of women, want to retain their legal right to exist, to be named as a woman, as a mother if that applies, to have privacy from men etc

purpleboy · 04/03/2021 12:26

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ChancesWhatChances · 04/03/2021 12:27

“FlibbertyGiblets

Well I am baffled by the reference to Female women by the op.
I am not a cis woman, I reject that label. I am an woman, the cunty kind, if you need a qualifier.”

I’ll join you in that qualifier Grin

Winesalot · 04/03/2021 12:27

well using gender critical logic and the logic produced here, you should probably not use the term woman as it is a gender term and use the term female or create another term. Because if trans women aren't women then females who don't identify with the woman gender can't be women either.

Woman is a term to describe a female human as they reach adulthood. Just because another group decided that they could change the meaning of this, does not actually mean that it is correct to call this a 'gendered' term'.

Why is a group's actions, insisting on changing the language women use to describe women, not being recognised as acting to oppress women?

ErrolTheDragon · 04/03/2021 12:27

Each of us posting is doing so from their own perspective. It's not a hive mind or gang - just a board where gender critical feminism is apparently the view of the majority. Anyone else is welcome to debate, to propose and defend alternative viewpoints.

ThePankhurstConnection · 04/03/2021 12:27

@rozettamodeau

now I feel like I never want to use this site again.
Well that's ok, we don't all like the same places - the internet is huge with lots of other sites if this one isn't to your liking - although this is only one section and it is a great forum with lots of other sections. Have you heard of one called Reddit? You might be happy there. I know I'm not since they shut any female-centric subs down but it might be somewhere you are more comfortable and where people are more open to having their tone policed (possibly) although I think a lot of people object to that over many platforms.
jellyfrizz · 04/03/2021 12:28

[quote ASugar]@Winesalot until you can call accept that trans women want to be addressed as women, not trans women then I will continue to say cisgender to reference to those of you who are female women.[/quote]
As people have told you that this is not their gender identity then you would be deliberately misgendering them.

Kettlingur · 04/03/2021 12:29

There's also Twitter. Many of us have been banned from there so that place might feel more comfortable to you?

bourbonne · 04/03/2021 12:29

"The woman gender"!! What about hens, mares, ewes, sows... Are those terms expressive of a gender identity? Or do they simply refer to the female of the species?

ASugar · 04/03/2021 12:30

@erkrie actually if you look at the new RSE programme guidelines inclusive language is used which is why it isn't labeled "boy talk girl talk" anymore.

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ElfAndSafetyInspector · 04/03/2021 12:31

@ASugar

A final point that everyone keeps mentioning, not every trans woman or trans man wants to be identified as transgender. They don't wish to use the term outside of speaking to medical professionals. So if you don't like the term cisgender then respect that trans women are women and trans men are men. And if you don't have a gender identity that by definition would mean you are transgender.
I'm not going to post this for the particular benefit of the OP, who has already said she has to work now, but for other visitors wondering what might be wrong with this.

This was the perspective that sent me off to "educate myself," nearly ten years ago as a TWAW liberal feminist. I had noticed a tendency towards the assumption that gender stereotypes predicted gender identity. I said that I was "cis" (I know!) but I prefer a masculine dress sense, enjoy male-dominated hobbies and feel no alignment with an inner sense of male or female. The first response I had told me that I might be cissexual, but was undoubtedly transgender.

Oh.

Okay, I thought. Perhaps I am. And I went off and duly researched everything I could get my little paws on. Some of it I enjoyed (I liked Kate Bornstein's autobiography) but the rest brought me to a screeching halt as I realised that so much of what I read was phenomenally sexist.

I was being told that if I enjoyed men's activities and preferred a masculine appearance, I wasn't really a woman. That real women (or "cis women") were those whose inner selves magically aligned with the sexist shite expected of them in patriarchy - how convenient for patriarchy! Real women, whatever their birth sex, just innately sense themselves to be the kind, pink, endlessly enduring and patient helpmeet to the innately superior male. Fuck. That.

I don't have a gender identity - I conducted a genuine and thorough search and concluded I don't feel an innate sense of gender at all. In fact, I came to the view that this innate gender stuff was a religious view. Realising that saying this to others would mark me as a heretic was a particularly discomforting experience. I am not transgender because I think gender is sexist bollocks designed to uphold patriarchy. And as a longstanding trans ally I was perplexed by the idea that validating me as unwoman would do any level of service to those for whom the laws were designed.

So for me at least, this "by definition" is part of the problem. I ignore gender expectations because they are reductive and limiting, not because I am transgender. My mode of dress, hobbies, preferences and mannerisms are part of my personality - remember those? It's what we used to call our sense of self before that idea was replaced with a computer generated drop-down menu of pick 'n' mix identities - and do not denote my subscription to anybody else's quasi-religious beliefs.

Claudia84 · 04/03/2021 12:31

[quote ASugar]@Winesalot I don't believe trans rights affect women's rights in a negative way. At all.[/quote]
You’ve said this, but then also said that you can’t speak about sports or women’s prisons. I appreciate you have come to discuss but you’ve also made quite a big statement there yet won’t address two quite glaring examples of issues that women are raising about their rights.

acatcalledjohn · 04/03/2021 12:31

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Xanthangum · 04/03/2021 12:32

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bourbonne · 04/03/2021 12:32

I find it really offensive that my being a woman is positioned as some inner "gender identity" independent of material reality. It makes a lot of assumptions about me.

yourhairiswinterfire · 04/03/2021 12:33

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Erkrie · 04/03/2021 12:33

actually if you look at the new RSE programme guidelines inclusive language is used which is why it isn't labeled "boy talk girl talk" anymore.

In biology, facts are taught. Not gendered identities. Do you want to know how I know this?

ChancesWhatChances · 04/03/2021 12:36

@Erkrie please tell me you’re a biology teacher, it would make my day to know that sex is actually being taught in schools.

ArcheryAnnie · 04/03/2021 12:40

ASugar do you think that people born male, and who have identified with being male until they commit a serious crime (rape, murder) and who then identify as being female, should be housed in women's prisons? Because this is happening, a lot.

if you do, please can you clarify what experience this transwoman has of "oppression based on being female/a woman"?

PheasantPlucker1 · 04/03/2021 12:40

I teach (not biology) and I absolutely teach the differences between sex amd gender.

Its quite amusing when kids start questioning why we have gender and deduce its not helpful and should be abolished.