Trans rights are a part of women's rights

[ASugar]

Trans people don't negatively affect women's rights. They are a part of the women's rights. Both trans men and trans women experience oppression based on being female/a woman.

And, by the way, stop posing as 'the real women'. There are people with wombs who don't feel threatened by trans women being recognised as women and are in solidarity with them. It seems that you are committed to not allowing any space for us here.

@ASugar in india there are a group of people who have to get up before dawn to find a safe place to urinate and defecate, because they might be attacked by or watched for gratification by another group of poeple

i don't know what the gender identities of each individual in those groups are though, so I don't think we can draw any conclusions or take any action to keep people safe :-(

asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/The-Big-Story/World-s-biggest-toilet-building-project-empowers-India-s-women

until you can call accept that trans women want to be addressed as women, not trans women then I will continue to say cisgender to reference to those of you who are female women.

There are only female women. So no need for it. But you do you.

[quote ASugar]@Winesalot until you can call accept that trans women want to be addressed as women, not trans women then I will continue to say cisgender to reference to those of you who are female women.[/quote]
You'll get deleted if you do, same as posters do for 'misgendering'. MN talk guidelines, for avoidance of doubt:

That said, it’s clear that most trans people find the use of pronouns or names that they or others have consciously rejected, to be hurtful and would therefore struggle to engage in a discussion with those who insist on using them. The same is true of the expression ‘Trans-Identified Male’ or ‘TIM’. Likewise, many feminists are affronted by the term ‘cis’ and ‘terf’, so using these terms will make civil debate less likely. As we’ve said, context is everything – but it’s likely that going forward our moderation team will delete these expressions.

I've got work to do so I'm going to leave my thoughts and opinions and this post here. Contact me on twitter @ AnxietySugar_ if you'd like to discuss this more and thanks to those of you who have agreed and have been polite in this discussion.

until you can call accept that trans women want to be addressed as women, not trans women then I will continue to say cisgender to reference to those of you who are female women.

So to translate, until women agree that transwomen are a subset of women and address them accordingly, then you will continue to other women in their own sex class, by adding them to a subset called cisgender.

Righty ho. See what you're doing there.

[quote ASugar]@Numicon cis men do. Trans women do not.[/quote]
You might want to double check the stats on that, OP.

Trans women have the same offending rate as another group of people - care to guess which group?

(Spoiler alert: it’s not women)

Do you agree with self identification? If so, at what point do you believe that a biological male becomes statistically less of a threat to women - is it saying the sentence “I am a woman” that does it? What’s the mechanism?

I see @ASugar has no thoughts on why terrible things keep happening to certain, totally unrelated people who have literally nothing in common

[quote ASugar]@BlackWaveComing I'm sorry but cisgender isnt a slur and within this discussion it is necessary to use. MumsNet can state what they want on that however if the term cisgender is offensive then the term transgender is equally offensive and shouldn't be used.[/quote]
@ASugar

This post of yours has really made me grimace/cringe. It's really antagonistic and rude of you to continue to use the c* word on a Feminist* Discussion Board where people have politely asked you not to and given reasonable reasons as to why they prefer you not to.

@ASugar

I've got work to do so I'm going to leave my thoughts and opinions and this post here. Contact me on twitter @ AnxietySugar_ if you'd like to discuss this more and thanks to those of you who have agreed and have been polite in this discussion.

Why do you keep trying to get posters to follow you over to Twitter?

It's awful that people keep being discriminated against and assaulted by people, Bernard. What makes people do that to people?

If you describe me as a cis woman that would be incorrect because I do not have a gender identity. Apparently it involves strong feelings that I don't have. So, my non-existent gender identity cannot match my sex.

[quote ASugar]@Numicon cis men do. Trans women do not.[/quote]
Why do you believe that trans women not harm women at all?

Did you not follow the MOJ judicial review at all yesterday? About the women attacked in prison by transwomen? That is surely evidence that puts your claim directly in dispute.

[quote ASugar]@Winesalot I don't believe trans rights affect women's rights in a negative way. At all.[/quote]
But you have refused to discuss situations where they might affect women's rights at all, such as prisons and sports.

Do you believe that women have the right to single sex spaces? If you don't, then sure, women's rights aren't affected because you believe women didn't / shouldn't have the right to their own space in the first place.

If you do believe women have the right to single sex spaces, then isn't Stonewall's campaign to abolish them* a way in which trans rights affect women's rights in a negative way?

*Stonewall's 2018 submission on the GRA called for the removal of single sex space protections in the Equality Act, if you weren't aware of that.

Cisgender is an offensive term to many of us. When we ask you not to use it, why can't your respect that request like we are asked to (and most of us do) respect the pronouns of transpeople?

@rozettamodeau

Until today I didn't know anything about Mumsnet being monopolised by a very particular perspective on 'women's rights'. I saw something on Twitter saying 'Mumsnet is transphobic'. I thought that was sad. Mumsnet HQ says it allows 'free speech'. But tbh, coming here I observe that the Feminism chat on Mumsnet is hijacked by a particular perspective that is against trans women legally identifying as women. When someone posts the opposite view, there is no debate, rather they are jumped on by the gang in a provocative and sarcastic tone, all the while pretending that they are discussing and that the OP 'monopolises' the conversation, while it is them who have done so, effectively putting off and kicking out anyone who disagrees with them. Depressing!

There is no debate you say.

That is interesting, what I see is women putting forward reasonable points backed up with evidence, often this is met with silence or one line dismissive responses backed by no evidence. So if there is 'no debate' in your eyes it is for a couple of reasons: one is that there are no viable responses to the reasonable points and in some case no response at all and 2) by debate you mean that women haven't come around to agree with what you believe and stubbornly continue to think the same way they did before on account of that evidence they have gathered and the extensive reading they have done.

The posters on here aren't under any obligation whatsoever to respond to you in the tone you desire so long as they aren't being insulting or abusive.

It's awful that people keep being discriminated against and assaulted by people, Bernard. What makes people do that to people?

I know right Eresh. But since we can't see any patterns, what can we do about it? can't put any processes and procedures in place to protect people, can't direct education resources, can't do awareness raising, nuffink

just have to live with it right?

There are people with wombs

People with wombs, eh? What about the ones with vaginas but without wombs? Are they all men? Or a third category? As you appear to be using "people with wombs" as a synonym for "woman?"

Cisgender isn't an offensive term. If so then everyone including myself who has used the term transgender should be reported also.

You complained that someone misgendered you earlier, presumably because you find it offensive, yes?

You know full well that women here find the pathetic 'cis' offensive, they've told you so. Why are you here demanding respect when you won't show any yourself?

Why should we have to call you what you want to be called, when you won't do the same? Respect goes both ways, you know, maybe try it.

But you have refused to discuss situations where they might affect women's rights at all, such as prisons and sports.

By which I have concluded that she knows she doesn't really have a decent argument.

A final point that everyone keeps mentioning, not every trans woman or trans man wants to be identified as transgender. They don't wish to use the term outside of speaking to medical professionals. So if you don't like the term cisgender then respect that trans women are women and trans men are men. And if you don't have a gender identity that by definition would mean you are transgender.

To compare adoptive parent not being "real" parent with not having to be female to be a woman is quite frankly limited in it's comparison.

Words are a function of agreement and identity is a function of agreement.
There's barely any disagreement that the person/people parenting a child, or mothering a child, is a parent/mother. The word is a both a verb and a noun.

There's no such thing as "womaning". You can parent correctly but you can't "woman correctly".

Feminism has a long history and in this history there have been debates on what 'women' are. It follows there have been multiple perspectives on what 'women's rights' are or should be. Here I only see ONE perspective that is based on genitals/sex. This is the problem, not the debate itself, but the ganging up on those who disagree.

@Erkrie

until you can call accept that trans women want to be addressed as women, not trans women then I will continue to say cisgender to reference to those of you who are female women.

So to translate, until women agree that transwomen are a subset of women and address them accordingly, then you will continue to other women in their own sex class, by adding them to a subset called cisgender.

Righty ho. See what you're doing there.

And there you have it: 'debate in the sense that I'll talk and you will eventually capitulate to my way of thinking.'

know right Eresh. But since we can't see any patterns, what can we do about it? can't put any processes and procedures in place to protect people, can't direct education resources, can't do awareness raising, nuffink

just have to live with it right?

I know, what a shame, it's almost like those people have something in common, but I guess I'm seeing patterns where they aren't any!