Trans rights are a part of women's rights

[ASugar]

Trans people don't negatively affect women's rights. They are a part of the women's rights. Both trans men and trans women experience oppression based on being female/a woman.

[quote ASugar]@DoubleThinker Cisgender isn't an offensive term. If so then everyone including myself who has used the term transgender should be reported also.[/quote]
Many posters this morning have explained that cisgender is offensive to us. It is in fact meaningless to most of us who believe that there are sexed bodies and that we have personalities that are shaped in some instances with dealing with those bodies.

Using the term is misgendering many of us. Please stop using it.

ASugar adopted and biological parents can both be called mothers as they perform the same role. We can explain and define what that role is.

Thats what I am asking you, what shared charicteristic so transwomen and women have?

@RowanMumsnet

The irony.

I am a disabled, mixed race female. Given that I'm at a higher risk of harm perpetrated by predatory men (and have been on the receiving end of some awful physical and psychological abuse) women-only spaces are some of the last places I can feel safe.

Where does @MNHQ stand on biological females' needs being secondary to biological males' wants?

Being a biological woman in a world where men are encroaching on our last bastions of safety is a "lonely and difficult place to be".

Also, OP's previous thread wasn't in the spirit but this one is? I wonder what could possibly have inspired the change of heart?..

@ASugar goodness I hope the gender identity of each and every child subjected to female genital mutilation is checked.

Imagine if due to an administrative error a male clitoris gets chopped off. Whoopsie!

www.downtoearth.org.in/blog/health/breaking-the-silence-on-female-genital-mutilation-in-today-s-india-75414

What I find offensive is people insisting that I AM "cis". I'm not. I reject gender identity and that means I also reject the labels relating to gender identity. And I should have a choice in that.

Do you agree that sex and gender are separate things?

That you can be biologically female and yet have a gender identity that does not correspond with this?

I presume that you do.

So why are you conflating gender and sex? Biological males can have a female gender identity, but their sex cannot be female.

When I was growing up there was a huge push to separate sex and gender - you could be a boy who likes wearing dresses and playing with dolls, and a girl who like trains and football. That was progressive. That was accepting that the spectrum of interests, behaviours, dress within each sex was vast and this was okay.

What you’re supporting is a regressive position - that you can’t be a man who likes feminine things, that must make you a woman. It’s so bizarrely backwards.

I have no doubt that trans people experience discrimination, violence, hatred. But a trans woman’s experience - as a biological male and then presenting as female - are not the same as mine or of other women. It’s not that either do not experience discrimination and bigotry, but the experiences are different.

My experience of being a woman includes: sexual abuse, as a child and as an adult
Endometriosis
Adenomyosis
Years of being disregarded by medical professionals and dismissed as “hysterical”
Invasive and painful intimate examinations performed by men, sometimes in questionable ways
Pregnancy
Being the default parent
Limitations in my career

Trans women will not have had these experiences. That does not mean they have not experienced difficulties, but they are not the same. Conflating them, removing the language to name the source of our oppression doesn’t only erase women - it erases trans experiences too. It’s a bit like saying you are “colour blind” when it comes to race which has long since been unacceptable.

Trans people absolutely should campaign for their rights, for their safety, just as women do.

What they should not do - sometimes with the unmistakable confidence of male socialisation - is try to eradicate any mention of the differences between experiences of the two biological sexes, or expect women to accept increased risk to reduce their own.

I don't believe trans rights affect women's rights in a negative way. At all.

That's a belief I doubt you'll be able to back up. Women have rights to privacy and dignity from the opposite sex. It's what the majority of women in the country want in certain spaces where we are and feel vulnerable, your personal views notwithstanding.

So what you are saying is that the feelings of all those many women don't count as much as those of MTF trans people.

I don't believe trans rights affect women's rights in a negative way. At all.

Why not?

@ErrolTheDragon you know transgender people don't want to have to refer to being trans all the time? That they don't choose to be transgender. So if you think cisgender is offensive then transgender is offensive. And I'm sorry but as a cisgender woman I will continue to use it.

[quote ASugar]@thepankhurstconnection my apologies. I'm struggling to keep up with the numerous comments on this thread as it is seemingly just me against a large number of you. I can't reply to every comment and will miss some out of no fault of my own.[/quote]
Surprising number of feminists on a feminism board.it may be a shock compared to the other, mostly massively male dominated and misogynistic platforms.

What I find offensive is people insisting that I AM "cis". I'm not. I reject gender identity and that means I also reject the labels relating to gender identity. And I should have a choice in that.

Yes that's what I meant, you put it better.

@ASugar if only we knew what common factor linked all the people caught up in the pelvic mesh scandal, then they could organise. But they just look like a group of unrelated individuals with nothing in common. I dunno what their gender identities are

www.theguardian.com/society/2017/aug/31/vaginal-pelvic-mesh-explainer

Until today I didn't know anything about Mumsnet being monopolised by a very particular perspective on 'women's rights'. I saw something on Twitter saying 'Mumsnet is transphobic'. I thought that was sad. Mumsnet HQ says it allows 'free speech'. But tbh, coming here I observe that the Feminism chat on Mumsnet is hijacked by a particular perspective that is against trans women legally identifying as women. When someone posts the opposite view, there is no debate, rather they are jumped on by the gang in a provocative and sarcastic tone, all the while pretending that they are discussing and that the OP 'monopolises' the conversation, while it is them who have done so, effectively putting off and kicking out anyone who disagrees with them. Depressing!

[quote ASugar]@Winesalot I don't believe trans rights affect women's rights in a negative way. At all.[/quote]
OK. So you don't think that a woman having her request for a hcp is affecting her rights in any negative way? Please clarify why this is so?

[quote ASugar]@daybath everything I have mentioned is backed by science.[/quote]
Ummmmmmm 🧐

I don't believe trans rights affect women's rights in a negative way. At all

Do males do more, or less harm to females, than other females? It's more. Always has been. So, we have places where males are not welcome. Deal with it. Sex is real, lipstick and dresses are just that, not reality altering magic charms.

@Winesalot until you can call accept that trans women want to be addressed as women, not trans women then I will continue to say cisgender to reference to those of you who are female women.

@ASugar in 2017 810 people died every day

i dunno what connection they had though cos I dn't know their gender identities. they were all pregnant though

it's quite the head scratcher innit?

[quote ASugar]@DoubleThinker Cisgender isn't an offensive term. If so then everyone including myself who has used the term transgender should be reported also.[/quote]

The term "cisgender" is highly offensive. We are women. Do not qualify our womanhood with your invented language.

You don't want to be called him or her, don't call people "cis" when they have told you it is offensive.

@Numicon cis men do. Trans women do not.

[quote ASugar]@ErrolTheDragon you know transgender people don't want to have to refer to being trans all the time? That they don't choose to be transgender. So if you think cisgender is offensive then transgender is offensive. And I'm sorry but as a cisgender woman I will continue to use it.[/quote]
You can call yourself cisgender if you wish, just don't apply it to women who don't identify with a gender. It's not functionally equivalent to transgender.

@OldLang

Well, it's a fundamental and (to quote *@MNHQ) "deeply-felt" belief of mine that gender is oppressive and harmful to everyone*. I, therefore, vehemently reject anything associated with it, and only recognise sex as being a legitimate system by which to classify humans (equal classes of course, but different nonetheless).

Enforcing gender ideology on me is against my rights to freedom of thought, belief and religion as stated in Article 9. I am causing no harm in my beliefs and practices to protect and assist biological women as necessary.

Horrifying that a site made for mums (a uniquely female experience) will faciliate the erosion of the women it supposedly exists to support and help.

👌

particular perspective on 'women's rights'

Any reason you've decided to put scare quotes around "women's rights"?

[quote ASugar]@thepankhurstconnection my apologies. I'm struggling to keep up with the numerous comments on this thread as it is seemingly just me against a large number of you. I can't reply to every comment and will miss some out of no fault of my own.[/quote]
No need to apologise to me or reply. I was just musing. I think the fact you are at least engaging with posters rather than just posting and running off is in your favour even if I don't agree with you. I think you are trying and it must be nearly impossible to keep up with responses.

Transgender people generally use the term trans so therefore using that term is respecting the terminology they have chosen to use.

Many women, myself included, do not accept the term cis. Therefore, I regard using it about me as deliberate misgendering.