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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Trans rights are a part of women's rights

999 replies

ASugar · 04/03/2021 09:16

Trans people don't negatively affect women's rights. They are a part of the women's rights. Both trans men and trans women experience oppression based on being female/a woman.

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BlackWaveComing · 04/03/2021 11:44

[quote DoubleThinker]@BlackWaveComing

I don't go into trans forums to lecture trans people, and if I did, I would rightly expect to be asked to.leave.

I made this same point and my post was deleted. [/quote]
What was the reason? There's nothing unfair about that. Hello strike 2 I guess.

BernardBlackMissesLangCleg · 04/03/2021 11:44

what is a transwoman?

a woman of trans experience

cor blimey the circular logic is, to borrow a gen Z phase "exhausting". Please imagine vocal fry and a hair flick.

where do these people think babies come from?

What do they imagine is the root of the oppression of women?

These luxury beliefs are just so fucking decadent

Judashascomeintosomemoney · 04/03/2021 11:44

@BaronessWrongCrowd

How does one join Ovarit when you don't have Twatter?
You can request an access code on Spinster or on Saidit. Which is what I’m just about to do.........
Hoping4second · 04/03/2021 11:45

@BaronessWrongCrowd @DoubleThinker

No, Ovarit is completely different from Twitter - it's a platform built by gender critical feminists precisely to give us a space to discuss / rant / laugh at the madness without having to constantly police our language to avoid hurting some man's feelings or to avoid having a mod think your words might be interpreted in bad faith to hurt some man's feelings and therefore you should be deleted / cancelled / banned. With optional assault, rape and murder threats just to make sure you don't forget your place next time.

I find it has a US slant to it which I why I love Mumsnet so much (UK person here) but for crying out loud every other comment here is being deleted for what I personally think are not justifiable reasons. I think the mods are afraid (with good grounds) of being called transphobic, because saying reality exists is pretty transphobic these days.

BlackWaveComing · 04/03/2021 11:45

[quote ASugar]@DoubleThinker Cisgender isn't an offensive term. If so then everyone including myself who has used the term transgender should be reported also.[/quote]
Women here find it offensive. If you are a good faith poster, find another way to express yourself without using c*s.

BernardBlackMissesLangCleg · 04/03/2021 11:46

Cisgender isn't an offensive term

cisgender is an offensive term

it's implication is that women agree with their oppression and could identify out of it if only they were smart enough

BaronessWrongCrowd · 04/03/2021 11:47

[quote ASugar]@DoubleThinker Cisgender isn't an offensive term. If so then everyone including myself who has used the term transgender should be reported also.[/quote]
I find it offensive. I request that you do not use it to refer to me. I have no need for Cis, I am not Cis anything. I am a woman.

I am telling you who I am. Kindly respect that.

AlfonsoTheTerrible · 04/03/2021 11:47

[quote ASugar]@DoubleThinker Cisgender isn't an offensive term. If so then everyone including myself who has used the term transgender should be reported also.[/quote]
Yes, it is. Please stop using it.

Numicon · 04/03/2021 11:47

If transwoman don't have to be female, to be 'women', then they should be happy to be called transwomen, and stay in their respective sex based lane when required to do so.

jellyfrizz · 04/03/2021 11:47

However as a woman and someone who is close to the trans community I am just here to state that women's issues cover a lot of the issues transgender people face and isn't just focused on biological cis women.

Perhaps give a few examples if you want to discuss?

ASugar · 04/03/2021 11:47

@BlackWaveComing I'm sorry but cisgender isnt a slur and within this discussion it is necessary to use. MumsNet can state what they want on that however if the term cisgender is offensive then the term transgender is equally offensive and shouldn't be used.

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BernardBlackMissesLangCleg · 04/03/2021 11:48

@ASugar how do you think Isis knew which Yazidis to enslave, rape, buy and sell and lock away? do you think they checked their gender identity?

Winesalot · 04/03/2021 11:48

[quote ASugar]@Winesalot I'm not here to argue everything surrounding women's rights and trans rights. Speak to transgender people more if you wish to ask further questions on sports, prisons and more. It isn't my place to speak for them in terms of that. However as a woman and someone who is close to the trans community I am just here to state that women's issues cover a lot of the issues transgender people face and isn't just focused on biological cis women.[/quote]
Yet, your thread this morning stated 'Trans rights don't effect women's rights'.

We are pointing out specific instances where they do. Or do you now agree that there are some rights that DO affect women's rights?

And if you agree that there are some that impact, do you agree that women should continue to fight to prevent the impact from eroding or diluting these rights?

peepholepringle · 04/03/2021 11:48

What the feck does "of the trans experience" mean?

Erkrie · 04/03/2021 11:48

Cisgender isn't an offensive term. If so then everyone including myself who has used the term transgender should be reported also.

I find the term cisgender offensive. I particularly find the term cis woman offensive. Just because you don't find it offensive doesn't mean others are not offended by it.

BernardBlackMissesLangCleg · 04/03/2021 11:49

@ASugar when Boko Haram abducted a group of school girls, how (and why) do you think those individuals were chosen? Hope none of them idenitfied as male! Imagine the embarrassment all round!

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chibok_schoolgirls_kidnapping

ThePankhurstConnection · 04/03/2021 11:49

@BlackWaveComing

It's utterly unreasonable to drive people over from Twitter to FWR, and then expect women to sit around smiling sweetly while posters arrive to grab themselves a screen shot or two. As admitted by said poster! Utterly unreasonable. It's contemptuous of MN towards women. FWR has been spammed over the last 15 hrs by posters completely uninterested in women's rights. Except to demolish them.
This about sums up what I think about most of yesterday's redundant threads. I think the women on here have been exceptionally restrained and polite in the face of some serious provocation. It is why I haven't engaged, I did, years ago and I saw that the restraint is invariably one sided, I'm tired now and I get grumpy Grin . While there may be some merit to reasonable discussion without engaging in insults etc. I think the good faith posting has to be on both sides and despite MN choosing to take things in 'good faith' I'm more skeptical (I do understand why MN does this and fair enough). I'm not sure there were many threads posted 'in the spirit' or in 'good faith' whatever those actually mean but if I was to say what spirit I thought they were posted in I would be accused of troll hunting so really there is no winning for women here. Apparently women have to just 'take it on the chin' with a 'stiff upper lip' remain 'in the spirit' and post in 'good faith' and you know, 'be kind' while being told they are wrong, their feminism is incorrect and doesn't include the entire world, they don't understand science (when they clearly do), must use the words they are told to while still being addressed by the words they have expressed discomfort with.

Ever since I first used this board many years ago it was always targeted by certain posters (like when prostitution gets discussed and a global klaxon goes off drawing in a marvelous assortment of new posters). Not much has changed except women have been given tighter restrictions on how they express themselves. Don't get me wrong I'm not having a go at the MN modding massive - this is a business and it has to protect itself and it has provided a large platform where controversial issue could be discussed if not freely, certainly more freely than many other similar forums and I will always be grateful to MN for that - especially all those years ago. I find it tiring now though - and that is on me. I have endless respect and admiration for those who engage daily with intelligent and informative discussion here. The women on the board are why I never really left entirely. I think yesterday and perhaps the rest of this week is going to be a slog so for all those posting well done, you deserve your hot drinks and Soreen slices (toasted or not or 'slightly heated in a microwave Hmm Wink ) Essentially I agree with BlackWaveComing on this. I think the modding has been a little over zealous although I suspect there are 'reasons' for this.

It really isn't unreasonable for women to strongly stand up for their own rights on a largely female orientated forum and especially on the feminist subsection of that forum and I think anyone coming over here expecting any less is naive or, dare I say, looking for ammo.

ASugar · 04/03/2021 11:49

@Winesalot I don't believe trans rights affect women's rights in a negative way. At all.

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SunsetBeetch · 04/03/2021 11:49

[quote ASugar]@DoubleThinker Cisgender isn't an offensive term. If so then everyone including myself who has used the term transgender should be reported also.[/quote]
I don't find it offensive. I just find it wrong.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/03/2021 11:50

"Cis/cisgender" is an offensive term to many women, as MN acknowledged in the talk guidelines. It's inflammatory as women who object to it don't accept that they have any common experience with MTF trans people. It is a label which presupposes that we see certain biological males as women. Which we categorically do not. It's imposing someone else's ideology on us, when we reject it.

It would be more acceptable if it meant "non trans women" when you were talking about FTM trans people, FWIW.

peak2021 · 04/03/2021 11:50

Two groups of people can experience oppression. That does not mean the oppression is the same, and that does not mean that one group who is oppressed has rights which always take precedence over the other and oppress them.

Trans women and women have some things in common (lower pay in jobs, more likely to be dismissed for spurious reasons than men I would suggest), but there are some differences which should be recognised and not ignored. Medical outcomes and risks of certain diseases come to mind for example.

jerriblank · 04/03/2021 11:50

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

BernardBlackMissesLangCleg · 04/03/2021 11:50

@ASugar, goodness I hope the cathlolic church checked the gender identities of the people they locked up for getting pregnant in a none state sanctioned way. Imagine if the accidentally locked up a man! red faces all round eh?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magdalene_Laundries_in_Ireland

ErrolTheDragon · 04/03/2021 11:51

Cisgender isn't an offensive term. If so then everyone including myself who has used the term transgender should be reported also.

No, they're not an equivalent pairing. 'Cis' is forced on women who don't accept the notion they have a gender identity, forced on them to try to make them a subset of their own class. We're just 'women'.
Cis is a false backconstruction. Trans has two meanings - transgender arises from the 'change' meaning, transition. The word 'cisision' obviously doesn't exist, it's a meaningless idea. So is 'cisgender'.

ASugar · 04/03/2021 11:51

@thepankhurstconnection my apologies. I'm struggling to keep up with the numerous comments on this thread as it is seemingly just me against a large number of you. I can't reply to every comment and will miss some out of no fault of my own.

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