Trans rights are a part of women's rights

[ASugar]

Trans people don't negatively affect women's rights. They are a part of the women's rights. Both trans men and trans women experience oppression based on being female/a woman.

@OldLang

Well, it's a fundamental and (to quote *@MNHQ) "deeply-felt" belief of mine that gender is oppressive and harmful to everyone*. I, therefore, vehemently reject anything associated with it, and only recognise sex as being a legitimate system by which to classify humans (equal classes of course, but different nonetheless).

Enforcing gender ideology on me is against my rights to freedom of thought, belief and religion as stated in Article 9. I am causing no harm in my beliefs and practices to protect and assist biological women as necessary.

Horrifying that a site made for mums (a uniquely female experience) will faciliate the erosion of the women it supposedly exists to support and help.

👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

[quote ASugar]@BlackWaveComing where have I been rude?[/quote]
BlackWave has already clearly explained this.

Ignoring the many sensible questions directed at you consistently throughout a debate that you chose to start is very rude. Perhaps you don't address them because you don't have a decent answer.

Well, it's a fundamental and (to quote @MNHQ*) "deeply-felt" belief of mine that gender is oppressive and harmful to everyone.
I, therefore, vehemently reject anything associated with it, and only recognise sex as being a legitimate system by which to classify humans (equal classes of course, but different nonetheless).

Enforcing gender ideology on me is against my rights to freedom of thought, belief and religion as stated in Article 9. I am causing no harm in my beliefs and practices to protect and assist biological women as necessary.

Horrifying that a site made for mums (a uniquely female experience) will faciliate the erosion of the women it supposedly exists to support and help.*

There you go. Lang has said it all. No more posts necessary. I'm off to do some work (in the hard-won job I have in a male dominated industry where I was treated like shit for 15+ years, sexually harrassed by virtually everyone I met, until I became too old to be interesting and then was ignored, discriminated against based on both my gender and sex, paid less, passed over for promotion, put on the "mummy track" when I came back from maternity leave, had a miscarriage in the toilets, but luckily this was before men were in there so I could clean up the blood without having to do it in front of my male colleagues - why don't you care about this stuff @ASugar?)

I don’t think trans rights are being helped by the factually incorrect assertion that trans women are women because they identify as a woman. Women are biological adult females, trans men are biologically adult men, that’s a fact. Trans women are trans women, they are not the same as biological women, you can’t identify away your sex.

Yes trans women face discrimination particularly from other biological men for being trans, and in some cases because they assumed to be biological females, but claiming over and over again that there is no difference between biological women and trans women is doing both a disservice imo, as both groups face unique and different challenges.

It seems to me that instead of tackling the discrimination and danger trans women experience from other biological men it easier gaslight us into thinking we are all the same so they can access the single sex spaces we have fought hard for, which ultimately means they are no longer single sex. Therefore, we are destroying single sex spaces to protect biological men from other biological men at the expense of the biological women who have needed and continue to need them.

I’m not saying trans women don’t deserve protection and don’t face discrimination, but I don’t think the answer is to gaslight everyone into believing there is no difference between a man who identifies as a woman and a biological woman, not only is this factually incorrect it is open to abuse with biological women ultimately paying the price.

I don't think anyone can properly define words like "woman"

You don't? Humans are a sexually dimorphic species. It's 'gender' - a more nebulous concept altogether - that consistently evades definition for the very good reason that it's shifting, not static and means whatever different cultures, historical periods and hegemonic powers choose to think it means.

The word woman has a very simple, dictionary definition. 'Adult human female'.

@RowanMumsnet I repeated what Michael said about the OP not posting in good faith on the previous thread and you deleted my comment. I take exception to the troll-hunting comment as I posted in good faith so that my fellow posters don't get in trouble after what MNHQ said themselves.

Does good faith only go one way now?

You are wrong. At staff training we were told anyone requesting this should be refused treatment and could be banned from Trust services for transphobia. Women's medical choices are being taken away from them and their health is being risked to avoid hurting other people's feelings.

So, here is one clear example of trans rights not being part of human rights, per the OPs assertion, but in clear opposition.

It is all too sad that I completely relate to your terrible experiences @minchinfin

I would recommend Ovarit as a platform for those of us tired of the Swiss cheese this thread has become.

Sorry @minchinfin reading that back it sounds like I was trying to assert my experiences were worse or more important than yours. What I actually meant was that a lot of us women can relate and it's incredibly sad that as a group we are treated this way.

How does one join Ovarit when you don't have Twatter?

@MarieIVanArkleStinks

I don't think anyone can properly define words like "woman"

You don't? Humans are a sexually dimorphic species. It's 'gender' - a more nebulous concept altogether - that consistently evades definition for the very good reason that it's shifting, not static and means whatever different cultures, historical periods and hegemonic powers choose to think it means.

The word woman has a very simple, dictionary definition. 'Adult human female'.

I provided the simple, accurate definition way upthread. There's certainly no way to define 'woman' which includes males, any more than I can define 'cat' to include 'dog', without reducing it to merely 'domestic mammalian quadruped'.

Find a new word if you can for the grouping you want, but don't destroy the necessary existing meaning of woman.

@DayBath I haven't seen all the comments as there are too many for me to comment to so I apologize if I've missed any genuinely questions. Feel free to contact me on twitter @ Anxiety Sugar if you want to ask me anything

Many of us aren't on Twitter, OP.

I would also like to know why my comment was deleted please MNHQ, happy to receive the response here or by message/email.

I can’t see why me stating that the OP is not really engaging and that the whole thing is tedious warrants a deletion.

@BlackWaveComing

It's utterly unreasonable to drive people over from Twitter to FWR, and then expect women to sit around smiling sweetly while posters arrive to grab themselves a screen shot or two. As admitted by said poster! Utterly unreasonable. It's contemptuous of MN towards women. FWR has been spammed over the last 15 hrs by posters completely uninterested in women's rights. Except to demolish them.

100% agree with this.

[quote ASugar]@Avenueofcherryblossom Yes, you still have that right.[/quote]
I’m glad to read that women can refuse intimate treatment from a trans woman because there have been news reports stating that a woman could be considered transphobic by the health authority for doing so.

to all the women mistreated by the patriarchy. Your fellow women see your worth and share your anger/frustration/exhaustion/pain ad infinitum.

And while we have some attention..
to all the women lost in the fight against oppression and lost to the actions of the oppressors. The ones who remain continue to fight for them, and our daughters and sons.

Equity for women benefits everyone

Yes trans women face discrimination particularly from other biological men for being trans.

Indeed. The problem, as ever, being men's potential for violence. A further issue is the horribly restrictive view of what 'gender' means so that anyone not confirming with its (arguably bigoted) stereotypes is at risk of violence, humiliation or abuse.

I know of no woman who believes it an acceptable state of affairs for trans people to be exposed to this. They just argue, quite reasonably, that nor should women (yes, they are different). It isn't women's obligation to fix this. The problem is men. A third space would ensure protection for trans people (and incidentally has other beneficial uses, such as accommodating carers and parents of the opposite sex to the child). But the trans activists don't want this. It isn't good enough. Nothing short of women ceding over our own hard-won rights will suffice.

It's still women who are harmed at the hands of men at a disproportionately higher level than other groups. Don't quote me - check the statistics.

[quote ASugar]@DayBath I haven't seen all the comments as there are too many for me to comment to so I apologize if I've missed any genuinely questions. Feel free to contact me on twitter @ Anxiety Sugar if you want to ask me anything[/quote]
No. Twitter is a cesspit.

Until Twitter explains why it banned Sarah Phillimore, Helen Staniland and many other prominent women's rights advocates I will not be touching it with even the longest barge pole.

Sorry @minchinfin reading that back it sounds like I was trying to assert my experiences were worse or more important than yours. What I actually meant was that a lot of us women can relate and it's incredibly sad that as a group we are treated this way.

Not at all Daybath - it is the lot of many biological women - hence why we get annoyed when people try and minimise our biological experience

ASugar I asked before but you may have missed the post.

Transwomen and women do not have the same sex. They do not have the same gender.

They share the word "woman", but that has no meaning we can agree upin, so thats meaningless.

So, in your opinion, what makes transwomen and women the same? What do we have in common, that excludes all men?