Mumsnet Says They Are Trans Friendly; What do you think?

[Nightinghawk]

I’m coming over from Twitter since @/MumsnetTowers has encouraged people to join, promising that they would not ban people for using the word “cis” and also that they think “Campaigning against trans people’s existing human rights and legal protections is transphobic” is “an interesting question and a debate [they’d] welcome seeing on the boards.” When asked if they believe that trans women are women, trans men are men, and nonbinary people are nonbinary, they responded with “We believe adults have a right to say what they think about matters of active public debate.” However, they do say they do not tolerate hate speech, malicious content, sweeping negative generalizations, derogatory or aggressive content on their site.

Given the conflicting messages I’ve seen from them in the past, and the fact that they to this day think campaigns against trans people’s rights could in any way not be transphobic and their hesitance to affirm trans people’s autonomy in our self-description and our gender(s), I’m hesitant to believe that Mumsnet the site is actually trans friendly. I mean this as no disrespect to the mod team or others in position of authority; it is merely my opinion (and lived experiences) that any online forum that doesn’t immediately consider campaigns against trans people’s rights as transphobic tend to have (accidentally or otherwise) cultivated a transphobic customer base on their forums. I say this as a trans person who has been leveled all kinds of harassment in a variety of online forums, where those which had not condemned transphobia had immensely more transphobia in quantity and in vitriol.

All this is to say, I’d like to hear your (Mumsnet’s users’) opinions on the matter. Is Mumsnet really a trans friendly space? Do you believe that advocating against trans people’s existing rights is transphobic or anti-trans? Do you think these existing rights for trans people are “interesting” enough for “debate”? Do you think the term cis should be censored? Am I safe asking for/providing advice here as a trans person? Why? Why not?

For reference: I am nonbinary trans and use xe/xem pronouns. I understand they can be difficult to use or to remember to be used for some people. If you don’t want to use my pronouns, then please use my username: Nightinghawk, or NH as shorthand.

@GCAcademic

I think feminism has to be intersectional in order to be true to it's end goal of equality and equity,

Why do have a stake in defining feminism at all, given that you don't identify with womanhood? I mean, it's like me going onto the Black Mumsnetters board and telling them what anti-racism should consist of. I disagree that feminism should centre either people who don't identify with womanhood or who identify with a stereotype of it. It's a total distraction from dealing with the many and very real problems that women face. There is plenty enough for us to do dealing with female people's rights without having to centre people who are not female or don't identify as such.

I think it's quite the assumption to say that I don't identify with womanhood. Nonbinary /=/ agender. To be incredibly simplistic about it, I find myself to be woman, man, and other. I recommend doing some research on nonbinary identities before making assumptions about someone's connections to gender(s).

I find myself to be woman, man, and other
Can you tell us more about this?

Nonbinary /=/ agender. To be incredibly simplistic about it, I find myself to be woman, man, and other. I recommend doing some research on nonbinary identities before making assumptions about someone's connections to gender(s).

"Non-binary (also spelled nonbinary) or genderqueer is a spectrum of gender identities that are not exclusively masculine or feminine‍—identities that are outside the gender binary."
(Wikipedia)

That seems similar to most definitions I have seen? As far as I can see pretty much everyone on the planet is non-binary - am I wrong?

I define womanhood as sex based. I'm guessing you define womanhood as sitting somewhere on a genderqueer spectrum that anybody can identify with regardless of their sex.

I fail to see how this progresses feminism or would help women and girls in the global south, for example, who are incredibly oppressed on the basis of their sex.

@Nightinghawk how can you be nonbinary and trans? Please explain what it was you transitioned from and to? How does that work if you don’t have a gender?

Men / women enjoying interests, behaviours, appearance, names stereotypically seen in the opposite sex = great.

Men / women doing this and truly believing they are the opposite sex because of it = if it's not hurting anyone else and genuinely improving their life and mental health, great.

Men / women doing this, truly believing they are the opposite sex because of it and insisting I have to believe it too and use all their terms to define myself = as unacceptable as any other personal belief being forced upon someone else. I have no phobia or hatred for people believing what they like, Christians, Jews, flat earthers but I'm not about to say their beliefs are real to me and humbly identify myself in a day to day context as sinner, shiksa, round earther or cis.

[quote PearlescentIridescent]@Winesalot and yet peoplw frequently do do those things or say something along the lines of "If I say what I really think I will be banned".[/quote]
Yes. Because there are certain subjects and words that cannot be used even when they are completely relevant to the topic. If you read widely on this board you would know what topics these would be.

You would also know that there are trans people who are happy to discuss some of those topics (even as they relate to themselves) and agree. However, we are still not allowed to discuss them or name them here.

OP You'll probably find quite a lot of your questions answered in Mumsnet's own guidelines which you can find here: www.mumsnet.com/info/trans-rights-moderation-policy

given that I believe that trans women are women, it's very important for trans women to be included in that intersectionality

That’s a very misogynistic belief though, IMO, which is why I’m proud I don’t share it. I see people who espouse this view as inherently misogynistic and therefore the opposite of feminists.

And it’s logically indefensible. What does the word “woman” mean, OP? What is the precise, accurate, objectively true, non-circular definition of the word “woman” according to which TWAW?

Why should the movement for the liberation of (biologically) female people from oppression by (biologically) male people suddenly start to include and even centre some of those biologically male people? It’s absurd. And it’s just another facet of that oppression of female people by male people.

All I see you doing is promoting the same old patriarchal hierarchy of males first, females last. The axis of oppression is and always has been sex, not “gender identity”, and your ideology embeds that yet further. It’s hateful.

As others have said, Intersectional Feminism was originally exploring how other factors such as being black, disabled or poor also impacted on the oppression of women. It now seems to be about needing to include male people. Similarly radical feminism is based in the belief that women are oppressed by our biology and seeks to address the origins of that (with radical relating to the word root rather than meaning extreme, again hijacked as a way of making gender critical feminists appear marginal).
Trans exclusionary, from my experience at least, is again used in a frog story fashion (to put it mildly) and what many people who use the term mean is transwomen are excluded because, for some reason, transmen always seem to be forgotten. This conveniently ignores the fact that one of the biggest areas gender critical feminism is concerned about is why so many girls and young women (aka females) are identifying as trans and non-binary and seeking to understand s the dissonance they feel with the female sex in the hope of improving the society that creates these situations. Which, to me at least, seems quite the opposite of being trans exclusionary.

I think it's quite the assumption to say that I don't identify with womanhood. Nonbinary /=/ agender. To be incredibly simplistic about it, I find myself to be woman, man, and other. I recommend doing some research on nonbinary identities before making assumptions about someone's connections to gender(s).

In fairness, OP, you were asked by several posters early on what you meant by 'nonbinary trans'. You didn't reply.

There are dozens of other great questions and comments from posters on this thread...all unanswered. I fear you are, indeed, yet another poster here not to debate but to scold us for non-compliance.

I recommend doing some research on nonbinary identities

And I recommend doing some research on the history of feminism and women's global oppression.

I’m on mn because I’m a mum. I do not know what cis is, nor do I need to know, am not interested.

Can we not say twaddle now?

"Why should the movement for the liberation of (biologically) female people from oppression by (biologically) male people suddenly start to include and even centre some of those biologically male people? It’s absurd. And it’s just another facet of that oppression of female people by male people.

All I see you doing is promoting the same old patriarchal hierarchy of males first, females last. The axis of oppression is and always has been sex, not “gender identity”, and your ideology embeds that yet further."

I completely agree with all this, you have brilliantly articulated how I feel, and I would have struggled to put it into words half as well as you did.

Is this you trying to mess with the Malt Loaf? Mums buy it xx

Yes. I think they have decent moderation, and are good at allowing freedom of speech that doesn't run into hate speech.

@PearlescentIridescent

So you believe that there is only your definition of feminism and anyone who views it differently shouldnt speak and shouldnt debate why there are potential problems with the concept of intersectionality?

To play devil's advocate though that's exactly what this forum does. If you are not what you guys call gender critical and what I call trans exclusive (without the radical bit) then there is absolutely no room for you here.

This is exactly what I was thinking when I read that. Nowhere in what I said insinuated that I believe my own definition/view of feminism is the only one around. The beautiful thing about words is that there are many definitions to them. Different people hold onto different definitions, which often causes a variety of strife in many kinds of conversation. Recognizing that there are many definitions that can exist in tandem, fluidly, and that they don't necessarily cancel each other out, has been incredibly imporatant in informing my understanding of gender, feminism, and the variety of experiences which shape the world around us.

Most of my interactions with GCs has been along the lines of "my definition is different, so clearly you are wrong." Most often I've seen with the constant repetition of "adult human female."

@TalkingtoLangClegintheDark

given that I believe that trans women are women, it's very important for trans women to be included in that intersectionality

That’s a very misogynistic belief though, IMO, which is why I’m proud I don’t share it. I see people who espouse this view as inherently misogynistic and therefore the opposite of feminists.

And it’s logically indefensible. What does the word “woman” mean, OP? What is the precise, accurate, objectively true, non-circular definition of the word “woman” according to which TWAW?

Why should the movement for the liberation of (biologically) female people from oppression by (biologically) male people suddenly start to include and even centre some of those biologically male people? It’s absurd. And it’s just another facet of that oppression of female people by male people.

All I see you doing is promoting the same old patriarchal hierarchy of males first, females last. The axis of oppression is and always has been sex, not “gender identity”, and your ideology embeds that yet further. It’s hateful.

Yes. All of this.

@JaneJeffer

I find myself to be woman, man, and other Can you tell us more about this?

I don't necessarily have the spoons at the moment to go into more detail about this, but I might discuss it more at a later date.

Spoons?

@AllAboutHallowsEve

Well I've never seen a mumsnetter threaten to beat, punch, kill or rape a transperson posting on this site.

But I've seen plenty of TRAs threaten to beat, punch, kill and rape women on Twitter for being GC.

So my question for you OP is this: why are you focusing your attention on women, mainly mums, who want to protect the right for girls and women to have single sex spaces, instead of focusing your attention on stopping TRAs from threatening to kill and rape us for not sharing their ideology?

This