Mumsnet Says They Are Trans Friendly; What do you think?

[Nightinghawk]

I’m coming over from Twitter since @/MumsnetTowers has encouraged people to join, promising that they would not ban people for using the word “cis” and also that they think “Campaigning against trans people’s existing human rights and legal protections is transphobic” is “an interesting question and a debate [they’d] welcome seeing on the boards.” When asked if they believe that trans women are women, trans men are men, and nonbinary people are nonbinary, they responded with “We believe adults have a right to say what they think about matters of active public debate.” However, they do say they do not tolerate hate speech, malicious content, sweeping negative generalizations, derogatory or aggressive content on their site.

Given the conflicting messages I’ve seen from them in the past, and the fact that they to this day think campaigns against trans people’s rights could in any way not be transphobic and their hesitance to affirm trans people’s autonomy in our self-description and our gender(s), I’m hesitant to believe that Mumsnet the site is actually trans friendly. I mean this as no disrespect to the mod team or others in position of authority; it is merely my opinion (and lived experiences) that any online forum that doesn’t immediately consider campaigns against trans people’s rights as transphobic tend to have (accidentally or otherwise) cultivated a transphobic customer base on their forums. I say this as a trans person who has been leveled all kinds of harassment in a variety of online forums, where those which had not condemned transphobia had immensely more transphobia in quantity and in vitriol.

All this is to say, I’d like to hear your (Mumsnet’s users’) opinions on the matter. Is Mumsnet really a trans friendly space? Do you believe that advocating against trans people’s existing rights is transphobic or anti-trans? Do you think these existing rights for trans people are “interesting” enough for “debate”? Do you think the term cis should be censored? Am I safe asking for/providing advice here as a trans person? Why? Why not?

For reference: I am nonbinary trans and use xe/xem pronouns. I understand they can be difficult to use or to remember to be used for some people. If you don’t want to use my pronouns, then please use my username: Nightinghawk, or NH as shorthand.

It's pretty common for MN threads in general to focus on some aspect of a post that people find particularly interesting. In this case, I think we're educating ourselves, which is surely a good thing.

It's pretty common for MN threads in general to focus on some aspect of a post that people find particularly interesting.

Absolutely - just look at the parking threads!

I think many criticisms of the FWR board fail to acknowledge that the general tone of MN is quite 'robust'. I remember the days when that caused some quite specific legal trouble on the breastfeeding/baby sleep threads, but even now threads on sleep training really don't pull their punches.

Pile ons do disrupt communication, but it's difficult to avoid them when there is no limit to the number of people who can join a conversation. It's not as though they don't happen on twitter. They are part of the nature of social media.

Hi NH, thank you for coming over here. I admire every transperson who comes to MN with a genuine interest in the debates that go on here.

I have a question which is not in any way meant to be goady. Why do transwomen want to be called women, not transwomen? I ask because I would have thought that transwomen have a set of issues very particular to being trans (e.g. health issues related to any surgery or ongoing hormone treatments, danger of attack at the hands of physical violent transphobes.) Would it not be healthy and desirable for a society to accept transpeople for what they are: trans, and get rid of all hatred and bigotry. Why not own and celebrate being trans instead of wanting to be labelled 'woman' or 'man' without acknowledging the trans process and struggle?

Also I feel it's FWR at its finest that I commented on this thread when it was at a few pages, come back and there's been 700- comments focusing on one specific aspect of what OP said

Am I missing something or are you? The discussion has been reasonably broad!

@Labobo

Hi NH, thank you for coming over here. I admire every transperson who comes to MN with a genuine interest in the debates that go on here.

I have a question which is not in any way meant to be goady. Why do transwomen want to be called women, not transwomen? I ask because I would have thought that transwomen have a set of issues very particular to being trans (e.g. health issues related to any surgery or ongoing hormone treatments, danger of attack at the hands of physical violent transphobes.) Would it not be healthy and desirable for a society to accept transpeople for what they are: trans, and get rid of all hatred and bigotry. Why not own and celebrate being trans instead of wanting to be labelled 'woman' or 'man' without acknowledging the trans process and struggle?

Very sensible points but also it's important to distinguish that not ALL transwomen demand to be referred to as Women and a number have been bravely vocal about that. It's trans Activists, many of whom aren't trans, who are pushing that agenda.

Also, hasn’t the OP flounced off for good now, and blocked anyone who’s also on Twitter, just to make sure that they never have to hear a different point of view ever again? I suspect they may be unused to engaging with older women with strong opinions who don’t take any crap.

Does anyone have any evidence at all that trans people are feminist-friendly? I haven’t see any - in fact quite the opposite - and I wonder (in a not-really-wondering-at-all-because-the-answer’s-fucking-obvious kind of way) why this should be so very much a one-way street?

I suspect they may be unused to engaging with older women with strong well researched and evidence based opinions who don’t take any crap.

@Impatiens - thank you for that clarification.

That link to the definition of multigender is quite worrying. Obviously it’s easy to take the piss, but the level of self policing required, the enforcement of hierarchy and deliberate othering of people who don’t follow or know the rules (which don’t seem to be consistent) is not good.

I agree.

also just a really poor user experience - it's why I very rarely ever reply to comments that reply to mine, because how the fuck are you supposed to find them again? PARENT/CHILD COMMENTS ARE A THING, MUMSNET.

I think it's a better user experience than forums which use nested threads of "parent/child comments". And others agree. They manage fine with having conversations on here. Each to their own.

I can't cope with nested threads at all. I've looked at other forums and given up on them fairly quickly because I just can't follow the discussion.

I don't like nested threads either, MN is perfect!

Me neither. They're very hard to read on a phone and the endless repetition is unnecessary. I'm not a fan of the quote facility on here either when a long post is quoted just to make a point about a tiny part of it.

Non-nested threads are more like an open, wide-ranging group discussion. Nesting is like little groups splintering off in whispers. I prefer the former for MN.

I detest nesting if I'm lurking on a thread. I prefer things to be in chronological order, with a decent quote function.

Nested threads just creates a sort of rabbit warren which goes off in too many directions.

Oh no I can’t stand rabbit warren threads - MN might be old school but at least you can follow a thread and a discussion in its entirety, all it takes is paying a little attention.

I think that those not used to a public chat forum may find it overwhelming .
If posting on FB or Twitter only ones friends or followers will see it unless gets shared by a big name.

Here every OP is equal.

Anyone can start one , on AIBU and busy boards like this it will be seen by thousands very quickly, can even end up on internationtional press.

Yes, I agree Wander. If you are used to being able to block any dissenting or questioning voice on Twitter, it must be a bit of a shock to find that other points of view can't be dealt with by a mute function.

Mumsnet is one of the most transphobic internet sites I’ve ever encountered and it would be truly laughable to suggest otherwise.

@Carolina24

Mumsnet is one of the most transphobic internet sites I’ve ever encountered and it would be truly laughable to suggest otherwise.

Frankly, the term "transphobia" is utterly meaningless, since it now means "acknowledgement of biological sex" and casts 99% of the population as transphobes. And, interestingly, no one, when challenged, can ever point to specific, actual instances of transphobia on here.

MN frown heavily on transphobic posts Carolina24 so I do hope you are busy reporting everyone you see

Recognising that there are only 2 sexes & women are adult human females and require their own sex based rights & services is not transphobic

@Carolina24

Mumsnet is one of the most transphobic internet sites I’ve ever encountered and it would be truly laughable to suggest otherwise.

Really? You don’t get about much do you?

If you think that saying a woman is an adult human female is the most transphobic thing you can think of you are in for a shock.