Mumsnet Says They Are Trans Friendly; What do you think?

[Nightinghawk]

I’m coming over from Twitter since @/MumsnetTowers has encouraged people to join, promising that they would not ban people for using the word “cis” and also that they think “Campaigning against trans people’s existing human rights and legal protections is transphobic” is “an interesting question and a debate [they’d] welcome seeing on the boards.” When asked if they believe that trans women are women, trans men are men, and nonbinary people are nonbinary, they responded with “We believe adults have a right to say what they think about matters of active public debate.” However, they do say they do not tolerate hate speech, malicious content, sweeping negative generalizations, derogatory or aggressive content on their site.

Given the conflicting messages I’ve seen from them in the past, and the fact that they to this day think campaigns against trans people’s rights could in any way not be transphobic and their hesitance to affirm trans people’s autonomy in our self-description and our gender(s), I’m hesitant to believe that Mumsnet the site is actually trans friendly. I mean this as no disrespect to the mod team or others in position of authority; it is merely my opinion (and lived experiences) that any online forum that doesn’t immediately consider campaigns against trans people’s rights as transphobic tend to have (accidentally or otherwise) cultivated a transphobic customer base on their forums. I say this as a trans person who has been leveled all kinds of harassment in a variety of online forums, where those which had not condemned transphobia had immensely more transphobia in quantity and in vitriol.

All this is to say, I’d like to hear your (Mumsnet’s users’) opinions on the matter. Is Mumsnet really a trans friendly space? Do you believe that advocating against trans people’s existing rights is transphobic or anti-trans? Do you think these existing rights for trans people are “interesting” enough for “debate”? Do you think the term cis should be censored? Am I safe asking for/providing advice here as a trans person? Why? Why not?

For reference: I am nonbinary trans and use xe/xem pronouns. I understand they can be difficult to use or to remember to be used for some people. If you don’t want to use my pronouns, then please use my username: Nightinghawk, or NH as shorthand.

Reductive & naive*

@MrsBrunch

I find that many transpeople who post on this site don't actually engage much on their thread. They either monologue or avoid discussion.

Posters here are happy to engage in debate. In fact, that's all we've every wanted and we're delighted that women rights are being discussed more widely at the moment.

Indeed debate.

Dont lecture about why intersectionality is better and everyone else should just follow it blindly because xe comes on and tells people who have been here for over a decade that they are stupid and bigotted and should stfu and change what they believe cos xe says so.

The arrogance is astonishing.

The feminist section of mn has a long history and culture which is important and relevant.

It represents a certain section of society which has rights protected under law which users here wish to uphold and protect for themselves and for the future.

If you want to convince people you have to do a lot people then just waltzing on and saying 'you are all so prejudiced and mean. You should be nice' blah blah blah like a sulking teenager. Many here deal with or have dealt with many a sulky teenager...

A major thing I've seen come from this forum is people saying "trans women are not women"

What is a woman? In what way are they women? And to what legal extent is this group allowed to be protected by the rights set up to protect women and girls against sexist discrimination and oppression based on our sexed bodies.

Sports is a great place to start.

Or maybe you'd like to explain it in context of the Judicial review today into how females are treated in prison.

We are open to discussion.

Please don't call me "cis" . I'm a Woman, an adult human female

[quote PearlescentIridescent]@RedToothBrush that is very reductive naive.

To use an extreme example, if I went to the Incel subreddit and posted something like "not all women are whores who should be treated as second class citizens and given to men as a government owed commodity to have sex with and bear children for" then I would also get shouted down.

I don't think anyone can pretend that anyone is genuinely open for debate around this topic. That's why I dislike it being referred to as a debate here. It is a set of beliefs the community subscribes to (I'm not saying without reason) and it is not really subject to change.[/quote]
I don't do Reddit so maybe I'm wrong, but aren't sub-Reddit's interest groups, and people only join/post if they agree with the premise of the sub?

MN doesn't ask member to subscribe to any particular views before they post, so there isn't really one MN community. Just a group of individuals, with a plethora of different views. Many long standing members are of the view that TWAW for example. Many have the opposing view, and many are on the fence.

So in this environment the debate can flourish and be heard, and if it's a strong one, with evidence, that will get people thinking and persuade them.

The biggest issue is that sometimes TRA and gender critical feminists have directly opposing views and wants.

I don’t believe I know anyone who doesn’t think that trans people’s human rights are every bit as important as everyone else’s but the issue comes when granting those rights disadvantages other groups (women, children, ethnic miniorities, religion) and those rights also protected by the equality act.

Over time I have become tired by the continual erosion of sex based protections that are entirely necessary. And the aggressive labelling of anyone who questions whether the word woman should be redefined as transphobic.

I am going to make one more comment before I run away (joking, but I do need to go) is that objectively, I don't actually think this sub is very good at debate. I think lots of actually poor debate tactics are used and people get very very emotive and anecdotal.

The problem is when you have many voices piling in and saying "oh YES well done exactly that" then it becomes kind of pointless to engage with any other view point. Despite how it appears and how it feels, I do think that actual arguments aren't countered properly.

As a poster tellingly revealed, they have been "radicalised" against transgenderism by social media. That seeking out of negative reinforcement, confirmation bias and judging a community by the worst examples they can possibly be judged by (hi, Twitter) is exactly the sort of melting pot that forms extreme ideas and fringe opinions.

Many women do not feel as vitriolic against trans women as those who do here. It's not because they're ignorant to the issues. It's not because they're not feminists, or suffer internalised misogyny or they're just woke naive young idiots (me apparently). It's because they've looked at similar information and come to a different conclusion.

Does anyone remember this thread?! It was hilarious. Just talking about new posters turning up and offering to help us understand made me think of this one and I can't stop laughing at some of the responses.

[quote PearlescentIridescent]@RedToothBrush that is very reductive naive.

To use an extreme example, if I went to the Incel subreddit and posted something like "not all women are whores who should be treated as second class citizens and given to men as a government owed commodity to have sex with and bear children for" then I would also get shouted down.

I don't think anyone can pretend that anyone is genuinely open for debate around this topic. That's why I dislike it being referred to as a debate here. It is a set of beliefs the community subscribes to (I'm not saying without reason) and it is not really subject to change.[/quote]
No its not.

If someone could explain what gender identity without using gender stereotypes it would be a start.

If people could come on and explain sport being fair, or rapists should be in womens prisons, or how Eddie Izzard can have a girl mode without it having a harmful effect on women that would be pretty nice.

Instead we are told to stop mentioning the bloody obvious elephant in the room and ignore it!

How does that work?

We need to be able to talk about our life experiences without being compared to incels who want to harm women or claim ownership.

We dont want that. We just want to protect and safeguard ourselves.

Whats naive is saying that hundreds of women talking about their experiences of sexism and violence and discrimination on the basis of sex is unimportant and not politically correct enough.

Remembering of course the context that in law, our sex is recognised as being a point of vulnerability and that it is a protected characteristic.

We are talking about defending the law and ourselves as it stands. We are not talking about unlawful acts. We are not talking about abusing others.

I support trans and gender non conforming people in being allowed to live in peace as they wish. I draw the line at handing over wholesale women's rights to spaces free from men and any trans identified male doesn't stop being that just because they wish it was so.

If there was some compassion for women and understanding that cut both ways from posters who come here telling women what to think I suspect we'd be in a much better place as a society.

If I met you IRL I would use your name rather than pronouns I don't have any belief in. I think gender identity is an ideology and I am against forced speech. I would, however, do my utmost not to be offensive as I would respect your right to what are your own beliefs.

I don't think anyone can pretend that anyone is genuinely open for debate around this topic.

Those who want a debate cannot do so because they get shut down by people wrapped up in semantics.

@MrsBrunch

I find that many transpeople who post on this site don't actually engage much on their thread. They either monologue or avoid discussion.

Posters here are happy to engage in debate. In fact, that's all we've every wanted and we're delighted that women rights are being discussed more widely at the moment.

Nightinghawk definitely doesn't seem very interested in actually engaging in debate.

Sometimes I feel that, whatever is presented on the surface, dig a little deeper and you find a person who wishes that we would just sit down, shut up and listen like women used to in the good old days.

Other days, I wonder whether what we're experiencing now is the global equivalent of that moment when your favourite TV show jumps the shark. Sometimes when I try to make sense of what's going on, I realise that I can't because the whole world has jumped the shark.

You would think they had jumped the shark judging by posts on here @TheOnlyLivingBoyInNewCross but speak to young people in the real world and it's a different story.

Nightinghawk definitely doesn't seem very interested in actually engaging in debate

Indeed.

Hi op, welcome to mumsnet.

I'm afraid I can't really answer for mumsnet as a whole, as it's users are a diverse group, with many different beliefs and experiences, but I can tell you that what I have seen has been respectfully analysis of the implications of trans ideology, and how it effects women (as woman are the focus of this bord).

For me personally, I would not consider myself to be trans-agressive, I do not wish you or others harm, and believe you should be able to live your life and experience your identity in peace. However, that does not mean that I'm going to agree with you in all thing's, and I don't think it's hateful to hold opposing views or express them respectfully.

Fundamentally I do not believe that TWAW. I believe that they are equal to women (and all other people) and that they should have whatever right and protection they require to live their chosen life, but that they are a separate group. In the vast majority of situations this grouping does not matter and TW should not be treated differently, but there are some situations where anatomical body type is relevant, as the human race is sexually dimorphic (male/female bodies have differences beyond genatalia). To deny this or prevent separation in these instances is detrimental to women.

To answer your language question, I personally don't think free expression should be censored. However I find it very offensive to be referred to as cis, so would choose not to engage with someone who used that term, in the same was as you would probably choose not to engage with someone who persistently called you an offensive term. So if you are actually interested in debate, I would advise that you refrain from using that word.

For reference: I am nonbinary trans and use xe/xem pronouns.

Can you possibly explain what that means, and why you use those pronouns?

If you identify as non-binary, may I respectfully ask what your interest in feminism is, and why you believe you know what's best to progress it? Thank you.

This is a really good question.

I think feminism has to be intersectional in order to be true to it's end goal of equality and equity, and given that I believe that trans women are women, it's very important for trans women to be included in that intersectionality.

To be truly intersectional, it's necessary to recognise female sex as an axis of oppression, as it has been for millennia. Yet trans activists often refuse to do this?

I don't actually think this sub is very good at debate.

It's not a "sub". This isn't Reddit. It operates in a different way. And if you think TRAs don't use anecdotes and aren't emotive in their arguments, you aren't looking very far. This is the feminism and women's rights board. It rightly centres women and girls. Trans issues are only relevant to this board insofar as they impact women and girls. That's why we discuss them here.

Does anyone remember this thread?! It was hilarious

I missed that one it looks great, have bookmarked.

This one still makes me chuckle

sexual technics

@Rosannarosannadanna

I think feminism has to be intersectional in order to be true to it's end goal of equality and equity

Its.

Pedants' Corner is thattaway >>>>

Hey OP, just picking up what you said here: "I think feminism has to be intersectional in order to be true to it's end goal of equality and equity, and given that I believe that trans women are women, it's very important for trans women to be included in that intersectionality."

Intersectionality, as I understand it (but it's been a while since I read Crenshaw) is that black women are never oppressed separately as black people and as women, but intersectionally as 'black women'. Their blackness intersects with their womanhood to create a unique form of oppression. Can you explain what characteristics are intersecting in the case of trans women in order to create a unique form of oppression? Also, intersectionality is simply a tool for analysing oppression. It isn't a kind of feminism in its own right.

The problem is , as I see it, I'm not a postmodernist feminist. I'm far more aligned theoretically with old school radical feminism. This means that I simply can't agree that trans women are part of the category 'woman'. This doesn't mean they lack human rights, or deserve oppression.My theory of gender is simply different from yours, and I don't see why it necessarily follows from that that I must be a bigot, or that I want the worst for trans people.