Mumsnet Says They Are Trans Friendly; What do you think?

[Nightinghawk]

I’m coming over from Twitter since @/MumsnetTowers has encouraged people to join, promising that they would not ban people for using the word “cis” and also that they think “Campaigning against trans people’s existing human rights and legal protections is transphobic” is “an interesting question and a debate [they’d] welcome seeing on the boards.” When asked if they believe that trans women are women, trans men are men, and nonbinary people are nonbinary, they responded with “We believe adults have a right to say what they think about matters of active public debate.” However, they do say they do not tolerate hate speech, malicious content, sweeping negative generalizations, derogatory or aggressive content on their site.

Given the conflicting messages I’ve seen from them in the past, and the fact that they to this day think campaigns against trans people’s rights could in any way not be transphobic and their hesitance to affirm trans people’s autonomy in our self-description and our gender(s), I’m hesitant to believe that Mumsnet the site is actually trans friendly. I mean this as no disrespect to the mod team or others in position of authority; it is merely my opinion (and lived experiences) that any online forum that doesn’t immediately consider campaigns against trans people’s rights as transphobic tend to have (accidentally or otherwise) cultivated a transphobic customer base on their forums. I say this as a trans person who has been leveled all kinds of harassment in a variety of online forums, where those which had not condemned transphobia had immensely more transphobia in quantity and in vitriol.

All this is to say, I’d like to hear your (Mumsnet’s users’) opinions on the matter. Is Mumsnet really a trans friendly space? Do you believe that advocating against trans people’s existing rights is transphobic or anti-trans? Do you think these existing rights for trans people are “interesting” enough for “debate”? Do you think the term cis should be censored? Am I safe asking for/providing advice here as a trans person? Why? Why not?

For reference: I am nonbinary trans and use xe/xem pronouns. I understand they can be difficult to use or to remember to be used for some people. If you don’t want to use my pronouns, then please use my username: Nightinghawk, or NH as shorthand.

@ItsAllGoingToBeFine

Nonbinary /=/ agender. To be incredibly simplistic about it, I find myself to be woman, man, and other. I recommend doing some research on nonbinary identities before making assumptions about someone's connections to gender(s).

"Non-binary (also spelled nonbinary) or genderqueer is a spectrum of gender identities that are not exclusively masculine or feminine‍—identities that are outside the gender binary."
(Wikipedia)

That seems similar to most definitions I have seen? As far as I can see pretty much everyone on the planet is non-binary - am I wrong?

It most likely depends on your view of gender/gender theory, but I primarily stray closer to allowing people to self-identify with what labels they are comfortable with. Some people do find themselves to very, very much within a binary idea of gender, while others are much more fluid, dynamic, or straddling lines.

Just as a general note: note that nonbinary denotes "not exclusively" and "outside the gender binary." This leaves room for something like the metaphor of having one foot in one room and another foot in a different room, or spilling out of one box into another or multiple other boxes.

@OvaHere

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

I'll try again Mumsnet because I don't see why only one of us is deleted for making the similar assertions.

Most often I've seen with the constant repetition of "adult human female."

This came about only because of the constant repetition of "trans women are women". I think it only reasonable that we can counter your assertion with one of our own.

This came about only because of the constant repetition of "trans women are women". I think it only reasonable that we can counter your assertion with one of our own.

Quite.

"outside the gender binary"

But gender isn't binary. Gender is a spectrum.

Ah, I see your problem OP!

You are tying yourself in knots over gender. Most of us here are discussing issues pertaining to our sex as women.

Fundamental category error, mate .

I hope you find more spoons, though. Useful things, & not just for stirring, although I'm a bit dubious about your use of that particular metaphor in this context.

My understanding is that it was coined by, & for, people with various chronic conditions which cause persistent & debilitating fatigue.

If that's you, I apologise, but I have a couple of mates who are really quite fucked off about its appropriation to mean 'I CBA/don't have time for this' by people who do not have such conditions.

This might be something you'd like to be mindful of, as a person with a keen interest in how other people use language.

'desperate' is the word @AuntieMatter

@ThinkIveFoundYourMarbles

I think it's quite the assumption to say that I don't identify with womanhood. Nonbinary /=/ agender. To be incredibly simplistic about it, I find myself to be woman, man, and other. I recommend doing some research on nonbinary identities before making assumptions about someone's connections to gender(s).

In fairness, OP, you were asked by several posters early on what you meant by 'nonbinary trans'. You didn't reply.

There are dozens of other great questions and comments from posters on this thread...all unanswered. I fear you are, indeed, yet another poster here not to debate but to scold us for non-compliance.

I'm sorry that I can't respond to every 100+ comment on this thread. I have a busy work schedule particularly with university today and figured I'd start a response to all those comments asking about what nonbinary trans is with that message. It's an honest critique of someone who made an assumption about me without fully understanding nonbinary identities.

I will admit that I'm much more used to talking about gender and nonbinary genders with trans and nonbinary people, so perhaps some of the annoyance that came through in my response comes from that. It does appear that quite a lot of people on this forum are making the assumption that nonbinary = agender or nonbinary = third gender, both of which are not true, as I have explained in a previous response to other posts, so I'll be taking that into account going forward.

I'm just waiting to back from OP as to how gender is binary because I haven't heard that from any other transperson.

Me too @HermitsLife. Quite right @Impatiens

I'm not making any assumptions OP. I just don't believe in any of it in the same way I don't believe in religion. Although for clarity I accept that people who do believe in religion exist and it is their right to believe in it.

To be honest I just view all this stuff as a secular religion half the time.
It's what your posts remind me of, though of course you are also free to believe what you like.

a lot of people on this forum are making the assumption that nonbinary = agender or nonbinary = third gender, both of which are not true
What is the truth?

@elgreco

Spoons?

It's part of what's called Spoon Theory in the disability community that processes the amount of energy certain tasks take into a certain number of "spoons," where you start with a certain number of spoons in a day to distribute to the tasks you are going through for the day.

You can read more about it here: butyoudontlooksick.com/articles/written-by-christine/the-spoon-theory/

And if you type in "disability spoon theory" into google images, some graphics will come up that further help to put together the concept.

It does appear that quite a lot of people on this forum are making the assumption that nonbinary = agender or nonbinary = third gender

I am making the assumption that this is a belief system like any other, because this strongly appears to be the case. Feel free to believe it. I support your right to religious freedom.

Do you have a disability OP? If not, why are you using that phrase to refer to yourself?

Hi @Nightinghawk, just checking if you agree that natal women are oppressed because of their sex?

Even if you also think they are oppressed because of their gender, do you accept sex is at the root of a lot of the oppression women suffer?

For god's sake. It's like arguing with a mirror.

People are not oppressed because of how they self-identify in their own minds. They are oppressed because of how others see them.

Women are oppressed due to their sex. We have rights to combat this.

Trans people are oppressed due to their presentation (if it is contrary to their sex). They have rights to combat this.

Feminism is for biological women ONLY because we are oppressed due to our reproductive capacity. Something that trans women don't face.

Intersectional does not mean that we have to include every man and his dog in feminism. It introduced the idea of including less represented women in feminism, like WOC. Not men that feel like women.

I am making the assumption that this is a belief system like any other, because this strongly appears to be the case. Feel free to believe it. I support your right to religious freedom.

Yes, absolutely. Believe whatever you like. Just don't expect me to believe that you are "man, woman and other". I'm happy to believe that you believe that, though.

I don't necessarily have the spoons at the moment to go into more detail about this, but I might discuss it more at a later date.
Ok I'm interested to know about it when you are able.

Hi OP.

There are many trans friendly posters on Mumsnet. I have seen mods deleting transphopic comments, so don't think the site is not trans friendly.

The feminist board has lots of gender critical threads. I've not seen many posters arguing to remove existing trans rights. Either they aren't there or the mods get in first and remove them. There are many posters who are concerned about the removal of protections for women, either through self id or through placing the extension of rights for trans women above existing rights for vulnerable women - rape victims, domestic abuse victims, fgm survivors, autistic minors. There is concern about removing the safe spaces for women to discuss matters that only affect biological women means those hard won rights will be lost, that there will be no progress for things like research into endometriosis if women can't talk about it.

On most other boards, posters won't care less whether you are a woman, transwoman, non-binary, man (non-exhaustive list!) but if you have a good story about your mother-in-law or a friend is being a cheeky fucker you will fit in happily.

@CorvusPurpureus

Ah, I see your problem OP!

You are tying yourself in knots over gender. Most of us here are discussing issues pertaining to our sex as women.

Fundamental category error, mate .

I hope you find more spoons, though. Useful things, & not just for stirring, although I'm a bit dubious about your use of that particular metaphor in this context.

My understanding is that it was coined by, & for, people with various chronic conditions which cause persistent & debilitating fatigue.

If that's you, I apologise, but I have a couple of mates who are really quite fucked off about its appropriation to mean 'I CBA/don't have time for this' by people who do not have such conditions.

This might be something you'd like to be mindful of, as a person with a keen interest in how other people use language.

I do have a chronic condition, so thank you for the apology.

This is a matter that many disabled people have talked on, but from my understanding from within the community is that this kind of gatekeeping tends to hurt disabled people more than help us. If someone is using spoons theory, there's likely a reason for it, and should be afforded space to explore that reason on their own time. It's difficult, especially through online space, to see or understand how disabled someone is. (This isn't to say that everyone agrees with this, but it is where I stand and what I have mostly seen in online disabled spaces)

@elgreco

Spoons?

Spoons is a analogy used to describe a concept used in chronic pain management and fibromyalgia/ chronic fatigue diagnoses, which is a way of looking at energy levels as a stash of spoons which when used up, are used up. Energy pacing. Xe doesn't have the energy to answer the question at the moment.

Oh sorry, just saw it had already been explained