Mumsnet Says They Are Trans Friendly; What do you think?

[Nightinghawk]

I’m coming over from Twitter since @/MumsnetTowers has encouraged people to join, promising that they would not ban people for using the word “cis” and also that they think “Campaigning against trans people’s existing human rights and legal protections is transphobic” is “an interesting question and a debate [they’d] welcome seeing on the boards.” When asked if they believe that trans women are women, trans men are men, and nonbinary people are nonbinary, they responded with “We believe adults have a right to say what they think about matters of active public debate.” However, they do say they do not tolerate hate speech, malicious content, sweeping negative generalizations, derogatory or aggressive content on their site.

Given the conflicting messages I’ve seen from them in the past, and the fact that they to this day think campaigns against trans people’s rights could in any way not be transphobic and their hesitance to affirm trans people’s autonomy in our self-description and our gender(s), I’m hesitant to believe that Mumsnet the site is actually trans friendly. I mean this as no disrespect to the mod team or others in position of authority; it is merely my opinion (and lived experiences) that any online forum that doesn’t immediately consider campaigns against trans people’s rights as transphobic tend to have (accidentally or otherwise) cultivated a transphobic customer base on their forums. I say this as a trans person who has been leveled all kinds of harassment in a variety of online forums, where those which had not condemned transphobia had immensely more transphobia in quantity and in vitriol.

All this is to say, I’d like to hear your (Mumsnet’s users’) opinions on the matter. Is Mumsnet really a trans friendly space? Do you believe that advocating against trans people’s existing rights is transphobic or anti-trans? Do you think these existing rights for trans people are “interesting” enough for “debate”? Do you think the term cis should be censored? Am I safe asking for/providing advice here as a trans person? Why? Why not?

For reference: I am nonbinary trans and use xe/xem pronouns. I understand they can be difficult to use or to remember to be used for some people. If you don’t want to use my pronouns, then please use my username: Nightinghawk, or NH as shorthand.

All this is to say, I’d like to hear your (Mumsnet’s users’) opinions on the matter. Is Mumsnet really a trans friendly space? Do you believe that advocating against trans people’s existing rights is transphobic or anti-trans? Do you think these existing rights for trans people are “interesting” enough for “debate”? Do you think the term cis should be censored? Am I safe asking for/providing advice here as a trans person? Why? Why not?

From the few threads I have read on trans issues here I wouldn't say it's not a safe space, but just that a lot of women here take issue with the things that appear to be eroding/affecting women's rights and issues - for example changes of language to erase the word women or using terms like 'chestfeeding' to negate the mention of breasts.

I think most here would say agree that trans people deserve equal rights completely, but that the general language and measures around women shouldn't be erased to accommodate this.

OP no I do not think trans people are particularly welcome here.

I think that any discussion centred around trans women would not be taken well as it is well known that there is, regardless of whether anyone considers it right or wrong, a large community of trans exclusive/gender critical feminists who take a hard line against the concept of transgenderism.

I imagine you would be welcome if you identified yourself as trans and participated in discussions not about the "trans debate" but if you commented directly on it then you would be met with a mix of people who genuinely believe in trans exclusive feminism and a proportion of thinly disguised transphobic posters. I believe there would be a smaller proportion of people with a similar POV as you on the "trans debate" and these would be found generally outside of the feminism board.

Objectively I think that is a pretty accurate description of what your experience would be in this website. Mumsnet can be wildly different depending what board you post in though, and AIBU is a clear example of that

@TalkingtoLangClegintheDark

A reminder to OP that this is the Feminism chat board, formerly known as Feminism and Women’s Rights (FWR) so what we're interested in discussing here is feminism, or issues seen through a feminist lens.

If you want to talk about something to do with feminism, then this is the right place. Discussing whether MN is “trans friendly” doesn’t really come under that rubric IMO, but clearly you might see it differently.

Perhaps you would like to come back and explain why you think this question is even relevant? Because I’m just not seeing it.

I think feminism has to be intersectional in order to be true to it's end goal of equality and equity, and given that I believe that trans women are women, it's very important for trans women to be included in that intersectionality. So, if this chat forum really is about feminism, it follows that it should be trans friendly as well (ie., not misgendering, not being invasive, no negative blanket statements / stereotypes).

A major thing I've seen come from this forum is people saying "trans women are not women" and subsequent misgendering and exclusion, but I'd like to know if that's just a vocal minority, as some have said already, or if it's truly a majority on this forum.

And to be fair OP, while I disagree with other feminists quite hotly on this topic, I do believe that as a feminist board in principle it should be possible to centre women and womens problems. The issue is that every bloody thread is about trans women 🤔

How about you start with explaining exactly how TWAW without using stereotypes or circular logic?

Well I've never seen a mumsnetter threaten to beat, punch, kill or rape a transperson posting on this site.

But I've seen plenty of TRAs threaten to beat, punch, kill and rape women on Twitter for being GC.

So my question for you OP is this: why are you focusing your attention on women, mainly mums, who want to protect the right for girls and women to have single sex spaces, instead of focusing your attention on stopping TRAs from threatening to kill and rape us for not sharing their ideology?

I think feminism has to be intersectional in order to be true to it's end goal of equality and equity,

Why do have a stake in defining feminism at all, given that you don't identify with womanhood? I mean, it's like me going onto the Black Mumsnetters board and telling them what anti-racism should consist of. I disagree that feminism should centre either people who don't identify with womanhood or who identify with a stereotype of it. It's a total distraction from dealing with the many and very real problems that women face. There is plenty enough for us to do dealing with female people's rights without having to centre people who are not female or don't identify as such.

A major thing I've seen come from this forum is people saying "trans women are not women" and subsequent misgendering and exclusion, but I'd like to know if that's just a vocal minority, as some have said already, or if it's truly a majority on this forum.

No, I don't believe TWAW. I believe that a woman is an adult human female and that gender is oppression.

I am nonbinary trans and use xe/xem pronouns

Yes OK.

I think feminism has to be intersectional in order to be true to it's end goal of equality and equity

Its.

I do however find it important to provide information like my pronouns and gender identity in the hopes of progressing feminism going forward

You're regressing it.

@Whatsnewpussyhat

What's with all these posts

“Campaigning against trans people’s existing human rights and legal protections is transphobic”

What rights and legal protections do trans people in the UK have that you think will be removed?

They already have the same human rights as everyone else.

Yet they demand the complete removal of all female sex based protections in law.

I can't put much better than this.

I'm also bored to death by trans lobby groups trying to occupy every space - in real life and online

@TheLovleyChebbyMcGee

I think the vast majority of mumsnet is transphobic. They resist using peoples preferred pronouns, deadname people, and assume that trans people want access to single sex spaces to rape women

Literally no one assumes that trans people will rape women.

What people are concerned about is that a rapist could say they were trans and gain access to female only spaces.

I think feminism has to be intersectional in order to be true to it's end goal of equality and equity, and given that I believe that trans women are women, it's very important for trans women to be included in that intersectionality. So, if this chat forum really is about feminism, it follows that it should be trans friendly as well (ie., not misgendering, not being invasive, no negative blanket statements / stereotypes).

So you believe that there is only your definition of feminism and anyone who views it differently shouldnt speak and shouldnt debate why there are potential problems with the concept of intersectionality?

And any alternative views on feminism should be automatically silenced on the basis that you don't like them?

This type of feminism has plenty of platforms. Its dominating current politics.

I personally think thaf identity politics like this really miss the point of how women are vulnerable and this creates a hierarchy which doesn't reflect real world situations and experiences.

I also think that looks at things from gender rather than on the basis of sex really miss the point of why and how women are abused and harmed around the world - including before birth.

Strangely enough MN is unique in being targetted initially at women who have just become parents and gone through the process of birth etc. So this element of sex rather than gender being important is particularly relevant because of the period of life or their experiences of MNs user base. MN is reflective of its demographic. A demographic which is one of the most under represented politically in the UK because of the issues relating to childcare which make it difficult for women to find their political voice in other formats.

I had a far more accepting view of transwomen before transactivism radicalised me against gender ideology.

But of course transwomen are not women. Unless you change the definition of woman to mean something other than adult human female , which is the default definition for millennia and the definition around which laws were created . So quite a major change

Like , if you change the definition of woman what happens to our current right to vote/have a mortgage etc ? Do we have to identify as a woman? Could we have voted in the past if we had just identified as a man instead ?

Are you telling me that it's not sex discrimination that means I got paid less than the boys but actually transgender discrimination because the company should have recognised my male gender identity , which I must have since I'm a geek ?

How does announcing your pronouns advance feminism, please? Generally women find that announcing their sex negatively impacts their treatment in the workplace. Gender tends to negatively impact women- it makes them more vulnerable to aggression, sexual harassment etc. Gender is oppression. That said, their sex also severely disadvantages women in society, but of course that can't be altered.

Feminism tends to be about changing society to address sex based inequity.

So you believe that there is only your definition of feminism and anyone who views it differently shouldnt speak and shouldnt debate why there are potential problems with the concept of intersectionality?

To play devil's advocate though that's exactly what this forum does. If you are not what you guys call gender critical and what I call trans exclusive (without the radical bit) then there is absolutely no room for you here.

A major thing I've seen come from this forum is people saying "trans women are not women" and subsequent misgendering and exclusion, but I'd like to know if that's just a vocal minority, as some have said already, or if it's truly a majority on this forum.

Totally depends on the context.

A woman who has been raped requests to see a female rape crisis counselor. The person she sees is a pre op trans woman. Which need is the most important? The woman's right to see another female or the TW's right to be validated? Most on this board would argue the woman's need is greater. It's not about misgendering and exclusion it's about protecting vulnerable women.

The are exceptions in the Equality Act to protect women from such scenarios which trans activists are seeking to remove. Lots of women are cross about that.

Also female sport. It's not fair for people who have been through male puberty to participate. Studies have confirmed this.

I find that many transpeople who post on this site don't actually engage much on their thread. They either monologue or avoid discussion.

Posters here are happy to engage in debate. In fact, that's all we've every wanted and we're delighted that women rights are being discussed more widely at the moment.

@PearlescentIridescent

So you believe that there is only your definition of feminism and anyone who views it differently shouldnt speak and shouldnt debate why there are potential problems with the concept of intersectionality?

To play devil's advocate though that's exactly what this forum does. If you are not what you guys call gender critical and what I call trans exclusive (without the radical bit) then there is absolutely no room for you here.

Try debating!

If your argument has merit it will shine through. An argument has to stand up to robust debate and scrutiny.

I think OP has gone off for xem tea. Look forward to engaging when xe returns.

So, if this chat forum really is about feminism, it follows that it should be trans friendly as well (ie., not misgendering, not being invasive, no negative blanket statements / stereotypes).

If you read the posting guidelines, you will find them saying that this is not allowed.

@RedToothBrush that is very reductive naive.

To use an extreme example, if I went to the Incel subreddit and posted something like "not all women are whores who should be treated as second class citizens and given to men as a government owed commodity to have sex with and bear children for" then I would also get shouted down.

I don't think anyone can pretend that anyone is genuinely open for debate around this topic. That's why I dislike it being referred to as a debate here. It is a set of beliefs the community subscribes to (I'm not saying without reason) and it is not really subject to change.

@Winesalot and yet peoplw frequently do do those things or say something along the lines of "If I say what I really think I will be banned".