Mumsnet Says They Are Trans Friendly; What do you think?

[Nightinghawk]

I’m coming over from Twitter since @/MumsnetTowers has encouraged people to join, promising that they would not ban people for using the word “cis” and also that they think “Campaigning against trans people’s existing human rights and legal protections is transphobic” is “an interesting question and a debate [they’d] welcome seeing on the boards.” When asked if they believe that trans women are women, trans men are men, and nonbinary people are nonbinary, they responded with “We believe adults have a right to say what they think about matters of active public debate.” However, they do say they do not tolerate hate speech, malicious content, sweeping negative generalizations, derogatory or aggressive content on their site.

Given the conflicting messages I’ve seen from them in the past, and the fact that they to this day think campaigns against trans people’s rights could in any way not be transphobic and their hesitance to affirm trans people’s autonomy in our self-description and our gender(s), I’m hesitant to believe that Mumsnet the site is actually trans friendly. I mean this as no disrespect to the mod team or others in position of authority; it is merely my opinion (and lived experiences) that any online forum that doesn’t immediately consider campaigns against trans people’s rights as transphobic tend to have (accidentally or otherwise) cultivated a transphobic customer base on their forums. I say this as a trans person who has been leveled all kinds of harassment in a variety of online forums, where those which had not condemned transphobia had immensely more transphobia in quantity and in vitriol.

All this is to say, I’d like to hear your (Mumsnet’s users’) opinions on the matter. Is Mumsnet really a trans friendly space? Do you believe that advocating against trans people’s existing rights is transphobic or anti-trans? Do you think these existing rights for trans people are “interesting” enough for “debate”? Do you think the term cis should be censored? Am I safe asking for/providing advice here as a trans person? Why? Why not?

For reference: I am nonbinary trans and use xe/xem pronouns. I understand they can be difficult to use or to remember to be used for some people. If you don’t want to use my pronouns, then please use my username: Nightinghawk, or NH as shorthand.

only about validation

But this is also curious to me too. Punks, goths and metal heads in the 80s didn't want to be or expect to be validated by middle aged women. They wanted to rebel and laughed in the face of the establishment. They made their own spaces. I don't know why there is such a need for validation. It would be rather a polite rebellion if it weren't so concerned with demonising women who just wanted to keep the single sex protections and provisions made for biological females.

Gardenbird48
“I haven't yet seen anyone provide evidence that a transwoman may be in any more danger in a male space than any other vulnerable male group such as teenagers etc - has anyone come across any yet?”

I would be a bit nervous of any young child/teenager being alone in a male changing room, whether they were male or female.

In my mind too, ( no evidence except the general possible behaviour of a few men) a trans girl in a male changing room might be vulnerable to assault -verbal or physical - because of looking like a female. This is because females alone with men are often vulnerable. Or, vulnerable because of hatred for her otherness if it was realised by some vicious man that she was male though also appearing to be female.

I don’t know what it is like for transmen. Do they find enclosed male spaces safe to be in? If I were one I’d be scared.

And can you imagine punk experts going into schools to discuss children's joy for playing musical instruments badly and thoughts on anarchic ideology...? There would have been scissors taken to the uniforms and very free form lessons!

To be clear I think there have to be alternative safe changing rooms. Women must be able to keep their safe, private spaces.

Wouldn't a solution be to convert male rooms/toilets into safe unisex pangender spaces. Then women's spaces can remain single sex protected.

But oddly it’s often women’s loos that are changed to ‘all genders’ and sit next to ‘men’s’ loos.

@newstart1337

Wouldn't a solution be to convert male rooms/toilets into safe unisex pangender spaces. Then women's spaces can remain single sex protected.

This has been suggested.

Unisex spaces (some people call them 'gender neutral'), & separate spaces for women who can't use such spaces or would simply prefer not to.

There seems to be little enthusiasm for this excellent suggestion from the people demanding that female only spaces should become unisex.

Hi, OP. I'd imagine this is a difficult place for a trans person to post - while there are plenty of posters whose concerns are purely based on protecting cis women's rights

It's worth saying that many of us are just as trans as the OP as Xe said that xe is non-binary. I'd say majority of us would meet all the criteria for non-binary anywhere I've seen them.

Please stop with the "cis" it's really offensive.

@MarkRuffaloCrumble

For reference: I am nonbinary trans and use xe/xem pronouns. I understand they can be difficult to use or to remember to be used for some people. If you don’t want to use my pronouns, then please use my username: Nightinghawk, or NH as shorthand.

Generally speaking on here, people talk to you, not about you, so pronouns are a bit irrelevant. Given that our usernames are often not related to our sex, mine for example, nobody on mumsnet knows (or cares) whether you're male or female, or how you identify - with the possible exception of those who rock up stating "Man here, here's my manly opinion..." which tends to elicit a raised eyebrow/meme or two as we've all been mansplained to enough times.

If you're actually interested in reading more about the gender critical side of the debate, there are literally (and I mean that in the old fashioned literal sense) thousands of threads on here to start you off. Feminists are pretty bored of having to explain their opinions to those who wilfully misunderstand, so until you've spent some time listening to others' opinions and ideas you might find that people are less willing to listen to yours.

This goes for any new poster who arrives with a big fanfare and demands to be pandered to, not specifically those who announce themselves as trans or non-binary. We're also pretty bored of explaining things only to find them screenshotted on twitter for TRAs to pile on and denounce them transphobic for caring about women's rights.

So in summary, welcome, read more than you post to start with and open your mind, but not so far that your brain falls out.

I still don’t understand how you can be Non Binary and Trans, not hating just genuinely don’t know.

I still don’t understand how you can be Non Binary and Trans, not hating just genuinely don’t know

Same, genuinely interested (totally understand if no-one feels up to or wants to explain though)

Sorry, just seen someone upthread has said they're non binary and trans, wasn't referring to you personally as had missed your post, would just be interested to know!
If you've already said, then apologies and I'll go and re-read the thread

Seems like OP hasn't been impressed by the responses here.
twitter.com/Nightinghawk/status/1368216021253906441

Just had a look at that status, they've got a point here

Users expect you to be following the boards 24/7, meaning any break you used is counted as you "not wanting to add to the conversation"
Experienced that myself before several times -

• if you stay and reply, you''re "Me Me 'ing, or apparently have no life away from MN.

• If you don't answer every single damn little thing, or step away from the thread, you've apparently gone off to bake a cake or something

They make a good point about ableism, hadn't thought about it that way before - if it feels mentally exhausting from a non disabled point of view, can only imagine how it may feel if you are.
I hadn't heard of the spoons analogy before these recent threads, I think that's a great expression (genuinely)

@Mockolate

Just had a look at that status, they've got a point here

Users expect you to be following the boards 24/7, meaning any break you used is counted as you "not wanting to add to the conversation"
Experienced that myself before several times -

• if you stay and reply, you''re "Me Me 'ing, or apparently have no life away from MN.

• If you don't answer every single damn little thing, or step away from the thread, you've apparently gone off to bake a cake or something

They make a good point about ableism, hadn't thought about it that way before - if it feels mentally exhausting from a non disabled point of view, can only imagine how it may feel if you are.
I hadn't heard of the spoons analogy before these recent threads, I think that's a great expression (genuinely)

I had that happen to me on a thread (not my thread) about Transwomen using women’s toilets, I got totally bombarded with questions about what I had said and one of the posters in particular kept posting and posting and saying I wasn’t answering her question but I was making dinner then there were so many posts directed at me it was overwhelming. I’m not a fan of the spoons analogy as to me it sounds twee but that is just my personal feeling on that.

There is absolutely no forgiveness if you have a busy schedule (with or without any of the above explained) and can't keep up with the thread. Honestly this strikes me as more of a classist matter, but it also fits with ableism because of intersections.

Classist? Why? Lot of working class friends of mine currently unemployed, plenty of time for social media

If you start a thread about trans issues, on the MN FWR board known for their vigorous debates on trans activism, you'll be expected to answer difficult questions and justify your ideas. If you only want to post now and then probably best just to add to an existing thread.

I’m not a fan of the spoons analogy as to me it sounds twee

On behalf of dd thats never really made sense to us, we've always said batteries as more people seem to know exactly what is meant

Perhaps starting a thread where you throw out lots of questions that you expect people to take the time to answer is not the best idea, if you're too busy to come back and engage?

Completely discounted my post saying I would be interested in their response when they feel able. I won't be interacting with them again.

@RufustheSniggeringReindeer

I’m not a fan of the spoons analogy as to me it sounds twee

On behalf of dd thats never really made sense to us, we've always said batteries as more people seem to know exactly what is meant

Yes batteries is a much better phrase.

It's very upsetting trying to engage with people in good faith who then run off to Twitter to slag you off.

The OP is very young and her Twitter posts do seem to reflect that.

Sorry their Twitter posts, apologies for any offence given definitely not intended

I do believe it's a bad faith discussion when someone "went on mumsnet to see how much they all are willing to say they're transphobic."

@Nightinghawk what have you got to say for yourself?