Mumsnet says Trans Rights are Human Rights!

[ool0n]

I always assumed Mumsnet were not the biggest supporters of trans rights, given the stories about them. But this is a good statement on Twitter, "of course trans people exist, and of course trans rights are human rights"
twitter.com/MumsnetTowers/status/1367071394870276099

Also I thought using terms like cisgender or cis were against the rules, this isn't true either -
twitter.com/MumsnetTowers/status/1367080005193318401

So can I get a trans rights are human rights, trans women are women, trans men are men and non binary people are valid!

What human rights do transmen and transwomen want that they don't already have?

Everyone has a gender identity

What about agender people?

"Agender is a term which can be literally translated as without gender. It can be seen either as a non-binary gender identity or as a statement of not having a gender identity "

gender.wikia.org/wiki/Agender

I thought you said non-binary people are valid.

BigotryisBad if you feel I have posted anything you find transphobic, please feel free to explain why you find it offensive.

Frogartist

This being a UK site; it's a good question.

Cultures that have 5 genders exist

Why just 5?

Genuinely not trying to be snarky, but some of the comments on this thread seem to be delegitimising the concept of being asexual or agender - why do you think this is acceptable?

And again, how do children between the ages of 2 and 4 assert gender? Why aren't they just demonstrating that a variety of behaviour is normal in male and female children?

Absolutely, it's your identity, I am a man, that's me asserting my gender identity as I define it. If in some weird transhumanist prank I woke up tomorrow and was in a body that is typically considered "a woman's" I wouldn't identify as a woman. I'm a man, and that identity is separate from my body's characteristics.

If gender critical people think their body is their identity, then that doesn't work with my example above and it implies they have no mental sense of self wrt sex/gender. It's an interesting variation that we can't test, as no GC people are going to wake up with a different body without a few thousand years of advancement in science and biotechnology. Trans people do exist now and we can characterise their disjunction between their identities and their bodies and we have.

Are you going to continue to post as though nobody has responded?

You keep repeating stuff that many popsters have said is incorrect, so many assumptions.

Your agenda is showing!

Is that male socialisation perchance?

The whole food talk that sometimes happens on here is fucking annoying. Why don't they just be honest and say "I don't approve of people talking about this topic so I'll fill up this thread with rubbish!"? Then they go to another thread and complain about people being 'silenced'.

Congratulations to MNHQ for your elegant handling of TRA criticism on Twitter today.

'mumsnet' is trending right now!

@bigotryisbad as you seem so fond of my user name. Kindly point out any transphobia on my behalf or indeed any 'threats' that, according to you, I have made. Just because you keep saying something doesn't make it true, now does it?

I am a woman because I am an adult human female.
ie My biological sex defines me as a woman.

I don't have any further sense of being female independent of how my sexed body has caused me to be treated. e.g. I went to a school with people of similar bodies (but very different minds).

[quote Impatiens]@bigotryisbad are you compiling a list of people who disagree with you?

You do know what 'bigotry' means don't you?[/quote]
Yes, I do.

I was pointing out that MNHQ's repeated assertions of 'welcoming' debate were contradicted by the named posters.

I've read the thread. Virtually everyone here disagrees with me.

However, it's clear from this thread and others that this forum hosts and platforms those who lie about trans people and their rights.

MNHQ claimed otherwise.

You've all shown that these claims of inclusivity and open discussion on this forum aren't worth the paper they're not written on.

@WhatWouldPhyllisCraneDo you just made me proper belly laugh - really needed that.

@JoodyBlue - If "Gender ID changes all the time", why has conversion therapy on trans people (Children and Adults) been as much a failure as conversion therapy on gay people? Literally physically and mentally torturing trans people to change their gender identity doesn't work, hasn't ever worked. You make it sound like it's choosing a set of clothes, if someone said to me "wear this or I'll electrocute you", I'd be chill OK, I'll wear it now! Trans people literally can't change their identity even if they wanted to, same as gay people can't change their sexuality.

"I am a man, that's me asserting my gender identity as I define it. If in some weird transhumanist prank I woke up tomorrow and was in a body that is typically considered "a woman's" I wouldn't identify as a woman. I'm a man, and that identity is separate from my body's characteristics."

What makes you a man - apart from trying to force onto women who dont accept it a gender identity you wont define?

@Mysterian

The whole food talk that sometimes happens on here is fucking annoying. Why don't they just be honest and say "I don't approve of people talking about this topic so I'll fill up this thread with rubbish!"? Then they go to another thread and complain about people being 'silenced'.

It's an aside that doesn't stop the main topic, just provides a bit of light relief!

And threads can be continued... so nobody loses anything!

Why not be more annpoyed at the posts that are obviously looking for Twitter Feed? (which is, by the way, what the recipes highlight/warn about!)

@RowanMumsnet thank you for your post. I know you have a hard job to do.

Gender identity is highly personal and many people feel its important to their sense of self.

But I dont see why someones own self assessment of their identity should trump biological sex, in certain limited circumstances.

Policy and law cant be driven by nebulous indefinable concepts, when there is a measurable and objective characteristic that correlates very very highly with reproductive function, size, strength, and rates of violent and sexual crime, at all times, in all cultures.

So why should identity trump biology in areas where biology is the salient metric?

I would love to hear an answer.

Absolutely, it's your identity, I am a man, that's me asserting my gender identity as I define it. If in some weird transhumanist prank I woke up tomorrow and was in a body that is typically considered "a woman's" I wouldn't identify as a woman. I'm a man, and that identity is separate from my body's characteristics.

Interesting. Your brain is wired into your body though. Sure you would have a lot of memories associated with male socialisation and having a male body. But if your memory was wiped, and you had to start again in your female body, you would probably just accept you were female.

If gender critical people think their body is their identity

I think we can safely say you've not understood. Our bodies are just that, our bodies. Not an identity. Just an unavoidable fact, however much we may have longed for something different.

I am a woman, because that is my biological reality.

However, it's clear from this thread and others that this forum hosts and platforms those who lie about trans people and their rights. Highlight them. We'll help you report them and I am sure Rowan will equally happily delete them!

But if that's all you've taken from this thread then you aren't reading iwth an open mind!

Talk of food - or wrapping up baseball bats with barbed wire and attacking people.

Eenie, meenie, newbie, mo.

It's a conundrum for sure.

So.

How are the court cases in the UK stacking up?

You've all shown that these claims of inclusivity and open discussion on this forum aren't worth the paper they'renotwritten on.

Wow so its every poster must agree 100% with you ?

Nope.

Gender roles and stereotypes are completely different from gender identity
You still haven't said what gender identity is!

Cultures that have 5 genders exist, their kids mostly assert they are one of the binary boy/girl identities

Those cultures still only have 2 sexes though, so maybe the children have more sense than the adults and know that they are simply biologically male or female.

The whole food talk that sometimes happens on here is fucking annoying. Why don't they just be honest and say "I don't approve of people talking about this topic so I'll fill up this thread with rubbish!"? Then they go to another thread and complain about people being 'silenced'.

Because in this case, there is an agenda that some of us did not know about to cause problems for a brand working with Mumsnet. Because the person pushing to cause problems wishes to silence people discussing and debating issues around women's rights. The discussion about Soreen is entirely relevant when you look at it from that perspective. I, for one, had no idea what it was and why it became important on twitter today.

I've read the thread. Virtually everyone here disagrees with me. [..] You've all shown that these claims of inclusivity and open discussion on this forum aren't worth the paper they're not written on.

The fact that people are allowed to disagree with each other shows that open discussion is allowed. Would you prefer no one was allowed to disagree with you?