Mumsnet says Trans Rights are Human Rights!

[ool0n]

I always assumed Mumsnet were not the biggest supporters of trans rights, given the stories about them. But this is a good statement on Twitter, "of course trans people exist, and of course trans rights are human rights"
twitter.com/MumsnetTowers/status/1367071394870276099

Also I thought using terms like cisgender or cis were against the rules, this isn't true either -
twitter.com/MumsnetTowers/status/1367080005193318401

So can I get a trans rights are human rights, trans women are women, trans men are men and non binary people are valid!

Robert J Stoller!!!! Are you fucking kidding?

This is the "scientist" who in a study of 3, yes only 3 transsexuals, (his term) concluded the these 3 boys were transed by their mother discussing feminine issue with them at a young age. He noted that the the boys liked music, story telling and dancing and this was evidence of female gender identity. Other weighty scientific and not at all sexist evidence included noting a male baby pointing to a photo of a women in a magazine. Also noted were that the mothers were not very attractive.

A delightful read.

Gender roles and stereotypes are completely different from gender identity. Cultures that have 5 genders exist, their kids mostly assert they are one of the binary boy/girl identities. Some of those kids completely subvert the traditional ideas of what a man/women is meant to be or do in that culture as they grow up, they remain men and women. Some assert they're two-spirit and some of those will completely subvert traditional ideas of what a two-spirit person is meant to be or do in that culture and they remain two-spirit.

Well, I honestly don't really know what you are talking about here, it would be helpful if you could provide some links about which particular cultures you are talking about so that I could read about them further.

But anyhoo... In these cultures, which people have the babies, the miscarriages, the menstrual cycles? Is there a way of naming these particular people? Can those people identify out of having to do the whole pregnancy/labour/breastfeeding thing if they want to?

Gender roles and stereotypes are completely different from gender identity.

How would one go about determining what their gender identity is?

Not fair @RowanMumsnet

The recipe sidetrack is all that keeps some of sane whilst debating this topic!

I can debate and exchange recipes at the same time! I cleve unto the sex based stereotype that women can indeed multi task!

Sorry purplehoody that reply was to a post by ool0n

Cultures that have 5 genders exist, their kids mostly assert they are one of the binary boy/girl identities.

And the difference between a boy and a girl identity is...?

Of course trans rights are human rights - what's all the hoo-hah? Why wouldn't Mumsnet agree with that perfectly reasonable statement?

Women's Rights, Protections and Equality must be upheld! Perhaps you could add that to your set of slogans?!

Still waiting to find out what it means to have a female gender identity....

DrudgeJedd

Thanks for that link. I am glad that Rowan is reading and watching this thread. (And I am now very glad to know about this Soreen thing)

Posting screenshots is very much not in the spirit, I would say.

@RowanMumsnet

Thank you for deleting the racism so fast and for removing some of the many transphobic comments.

That several posters seem affronted at anyone non-transphobic posting, including:
@PheasantPlucker1
@tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz
@BaronessWrongCrowd
@Leafstamp

On the other hand, is hardly 'welcoming debate'. In fact, it simply proves the point made earlier on twitter that MNHQ has become a 'safe space' for transphobia and bigoty and that anyone posting otherwise will be threatened, told to read the room or banned.

OP. I don't get what 'gender identity' is if it isn't a set of stereotypes.

I mean, I guess a child or adult might say they 'feel' like the opposite sex as a very high level way of describing they think they fit better with the 'other' group, but when you drill down into what this 'feeling' is, what is it if not stereotypes?

He noted that the the boys liked music, story telling and dancing and this was evidence of female gender identity.

Oh my! The year 5's in my child's school would be very confused then. The entire boys football team did dance and played in the band and I supposed they also loved stories......

@fruitbrewhaha

Robert J Stoller!!!! Are you fucking kidding?

This is the "scientist" who in a study of 3, yes only 3 transsexuals, (his term) concluded the these 3 boys were transed by their mother discussing feminine issue with them at a young age. He noted that the the boys liked music, story telling and dancing and this was evidence of female gender identity. Other weighty scientific and not at all sexist evidence included noting a male baby pointing to a photo of a women in a magazine. Also noted were that the mothers were not very attractive.

A delightful read.

Interesting! I have 2 boys who love music, story telling and dancing. I'm also not very attractive. Maybe I've accidentally transed them and we haven't realised yet.

"Everyone has a gender identity, there are 60+ years of research into gender identity and when children express theirs. Usually around 2-4 years old"

How interesting. Why do you consistently refuse to define what you mean by "gender identity"? As far as I've been able to tell it mean a stereotype that last existed in the 1950s since trans women seem to think they have to wear pink, make-up and heels. Trans men tend to be considerably quieter so I can only guess they want to oppress women.

In the real world I dont know any people other than trans people who identify with such sterotypes, which is why "cis" is seen as trying to force on people something they dont recognise.

May I suggest we all keep asking these questions until there is answer -

How do you define a woman's gender identity?

Why do you get to define gender identity and to force that on those who reject it?

If you wont define gender identity how can you claim it exists?

@bigotryisbad are you compiling a list of people who disagree with you?

You do know what 'bigotry' means don't you?

Gender roles and stereotypes are completely different from gender identity. Cultures that have 5 genders exist, their kids mostly assert they are one of the binary boy/girl identities. Some of those kids completely subvert the traditional ideas of what a man/women is meant to be or do in that culture as they grow up, they remain men and women. Some assert they're two-spirit and some of those will completely subvert traditional ideas of what a two-spirit person is meant to be or do in that culture and they remain two-spirit.

So HTF do I work out my gender identity? Is there some kind of FB quiz that I can do? Just sounds like another way of imposing stereotypes on people to me.

Gender roles and stereotypes are completely different from gender identity.

Are they? How would you describe a gender identity?

The thing about nations with multiple genders just tells me that not everyone will fit in the box society creates for them, which is exactly what feminists argue. Though we go further and say the boxes are ridiculous and no one fits in to them, except by thorough forcing.

@AbsintheFriends

Trans rights are human rights Women's rights are human rights Trans women are trans women Trans men are trans men Non binary people have sexed bodies however they identify

Agree with all of that.

@MNHQ, thanks for your entirely reasonable responses.

I wouldn't waste too much time on Twitter mobs, though. They never have any evidence or real points to make, when it comes down to it, it's all so much sound and fury.

[quote bigotryisbad]@RowanMumsnet

Thank you for deleting the racism so fast and for removing some of the many transphobic comments.

That several posters seem affronted at anyone non-transphobic posting, including:
@PheasantPlucker1
@tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz
@BaronessWrongCrowd
@Leafstamp

On the other hand, is hardly 'welcoming debate'. In fact, it simply proves the point made earlier on twitter that MNHQ has become a 'safe space' for transphobia and bigoty and that anyone posting otherwise will be threatened, told to read the room or banned.[/quote]
Can't see any 'threatening' going on although of course please highlight if you think we've missed it. In all honesty this doesn't read as though you were intending to take part in a conversation in good faith - it reads more as though you were looking for ammo for Twitter? Nobody's been banned as far as I know. We welcome all voices is what we said - and we do (so long as they stick to Guidelines).

Everyone has a gender identity, there are 60+ years of research into gender identity and when children express theirs. Usually around 2-4 years old.

When I was around 4 years old, any female worth her salt identified with "George" from The Famous Five, cos she was cool, and wanted to be a boy, and Anne was "just a girl" yuk!! That was in the days when we only had 3 TV channels and we HAD to read books because there was nothing else to do.

Most of us did change post puberty, cos now we are here, having had babies, many of us and having become mummies.

Gender ID changes all the time. When you are old, you have the experience to look back and see that. When you are young you don't. There are people here, who commit time they don't have to discussing the protection of the young, because we know this.

@AtSwimTwoBerts

Given that OP has told us that gender identity is scientific fact and to disagree is bizarre denialism, you'd think giving us the definition of gender identity would be simple.

Absolutely, it's your identity, I am a man, that's me asserting my gender identity as I define it. If in some weird transhumanist prank I woke up tomorrow and was in a body that is typically considered "a woman's" I wouldn't identify as a woman. I'm a man, and that identity is separate from my body's characteristics.

If gender critical people think their body is their identity, then that doesn't work with my example above and it implies they have no mental sense of self wrt sex/gender. It's an interesting variation that we can't test, as no GC people are going to wake up with a different body without a few thousand years of advancement in science and biotechnology. Trans people do exist now and we can characterise their disjunction between their identities and their bodies and we have.

bigotryisbad

It's a good thing many of us have learned to archive our posts as we go along. So as not to have slurs of racism upheld.

Data you see.

The type that High Court judges like.

[quote bigotryisbad]@RowanMumsnet

Thank you for deleting the racism so fast and for removing some of the many transphobic comments.

That several posters seem affronted at anyone non-transphobic posting, including:
@PheasantPlucker1
@tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz
@BaronessWrongCrowd
@Leafstamp

On the other hand, is hardly 'welcoming debate'. In fact, it simply proves the point made earlier on twitter that MNHQ has become a 'safe space' for transphobia and bigoty and that anyone posting otherwise will be threatened, told to read the room or banned.[/quote]
Odd, tis only those who question who are deleted here. Usually ones who, like myself a week or so ago, forgot to censor themselves tightly enough. Most women here don't trawl threads and ask for deletions of those who disagree - unless they are directly offensive. Yet here you are crowing about deletions...

Again, in a forum for Womens Rights why would you anticipate that women will acquiesce and simply give them up?

Why is it such a threat that women talk about this as a loss of women's rights?

Why do we always have to be welcoming? Try that on other fora...

And what racism ?

It reads more as though you were looking for ammo for Twitter?

What Rowan said.

I don’t understand, if some cultures limit the number of gender boxes to five, isn’t that rather limiting?

And how do you know if you have two spirits? It that some conflicting gender spirits or is it some kind of multiple personality disorder?