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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

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Original poster

Mumsnet says Trans Rights are Human Rights!

999 replies

ool0n · 03/03/2021 14:39

I always assumed Mumsnet were not the biggest supporters of trans rights, given the stories about them. But this is a good statement on Twitter, "of course trans people exist, and of course trans rights are human rights"
twitter.com/MumsnetTowers/status/1367071394870276099

Also I thought using terms like cisgender or cis were against the rules, this isn't true either -
twitter.com/MumsnetTowers/status/1367080005193318401

So can I get a trans rights are human rights, trans women are women, trans men are men and non binary people are valid!

OP posts:
merrymouse · 03/03/2021 16:05

@AtSwimTwoBerts

Your defn of "gender identity" must be different to mine then, as it has nothing to do with stereotypes

Why won't you share your definition of gender identity?

Exactly. I'm waiting for the scientific explanation. It's taking a long time.
PheasantPlucker1 · 03/03/2021 16:06

What is a female gender identity

If I had a pound for everytime I had asked that and been ignored, Id be posting this from my own island in the Maldives.

Winesalot · 03/03/2021 16:06

Your defn of "gender identity" must be different to mine then

Love to know what your definition of gender identity is then. Please feel free to let us all know.

And why we all have one.

And why it is relevant to the rights of women and girl's in relieving the oppression experienced because of our sexed bodies.

TheBuffster · 03/03/2021 16:06

Hes 14 now and very definitely male sex and gender, although he has almost waist length hair.
Ohhh how lucky! Mine gets ratty past the shoulders.

PotholeParadies · 03/03/2021 16:07

Soreen already make banana flavour (it's nice!) and special edition Halloween flavours. Thanks to that Friend of MN, I've discovered Soreen have just launched chocolate. Shock

womanity · 03/03/2021 16:07

This reply has been deleted

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AtSwimTwoBerts · 03/03/2021 16:07

Given that OP has told us that gender identity is scientific fact and to disagree is bizarre denialism, you'd think giving us the definition of gender identity would be simple.

BarbaraofKent · 03/03/2021 16:07

If I had a pound for everytime I had asked that and been ignored, Id be posting this from my own island in the Maldives.

It's the crux of this whole issue. Its the question that you can start and finish the entire discussion with. It's impossible to answer without resorting to stereotypes. That's why it's never answered.

ShapeShiftedForThis · 03/03/2021 16:07

Trans rights are human rights, but should not be at the expense of women's human rights.

Liquorishtoffee · 03/03/2021 16:07

It’s like debating with 1st year philosophy students sometimes.

PurpleHoodie · 03/03/2021 16:08

Having a mini toasted cake snack (with butter) whilst reading this MN thread:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4180758-MOJ-Prison-Policy-JR-TODAY

Original poster
ool0n · 03/03/2021 16:08

@MedusasBadHairDay

Suspect a lot of "gender identity" is just a result of gendered socialisation/roles. There may be research around people feeling like they have a gender identity, but there's also a lot of research around the impact of gendered socialisation from (even before) birth, and as yet no definitive proof that any of us are born naturally aligned to gender roles.

As a feminist my fight is that we were not born to conform to gender stereotypes, but society has attempted (overtly or not) to mould us to them.

So no, I don't have a gender identity. I have a sex. And as a result of being born that sex I have been subject to certain pressures, some of which have shaped my personality, likes and abilities. I can see how this may be mistaken for a gender identity, but it's not.

I would like future generations not to be subject to those pressures, and believe a world free from gender would achieve that. You may believe more genders would achieve the same. We differ here, and as a society we will need to work out a plan forward.

Gender roles and stereotypes are completely different from gender identity. Cultures that have 5 genders exist, their kids mostly assert they are one of the binary boy/girl identities. Some of those kids completely subvert the traditional ideas of what a man/women is meant to be or do in that culture as they grow up, they remain men and women. Some assert they're two-spirit and some of those will completely subvert traditional ideas of what a two-spirit person is meant to be or do in that culture and they remain two-spirit.
OP posts:
PurpleHoodie · 03/03/2021 16:09

Are they all not #nodebate these days?

lazylinguist · 03/03/2021 16:09

It existed when the stereotype was that boys like pink, and boys saying they're boys didn't make that stereotype more or less true.

You seem to be implying that the fact that sex-based stereotypes change over time, and that different ones exist in different cultures means that gender identity can't be based on stereotypes. I don't see how that follows at all. Gender identity is based on whatever the prevailing/local stereotypes are.

ErrolTheDragon · 03/03/2021 16:10

I could consider myself both trans and cis

Which makes the concept rather pointless, and also incongruent with the etymology which is supposedly a pair of antonyms. ( of course it's not really; it's an invalid back-construction from the other meaning of 'trans')

WhatWouldPhyllisCraneDo · 03/03/2021 16:11

@TheBuffster

*Hes 14 now and very definitely male sex and gender, although he has almost waist length hair.* Ohhh how lucky! Mine gets ratty past the shoulders.
Its horrendously unfair. My hair won't grow much past my shoulders. It's in awful condition. And his eyelashes are to die for. Hmph. If I wasn't proud of making such a beautiful human I'd be jealous. although he doesn't like malt loaf. The weirdo
MNHQ
RowanMumsnet · 03/03/2021 16:12

Hey - we love recipes (we host loads of 'em) but not so keen if recipe chat is a derailing tactic or a way to try to ensure that people with opposing views get frustrated and go away.

We also appreciate the love for the tasty, malty goodness of Soreen, obvs I can't eat it I'm on a diet

When we say we want people of all viewpoints to feel welcome to post here, we really do mean it. So we'd really appreciate it if recipe-chat wasn't used as a way to discourage people from posting. Thanks

BaronessWrongCrowd · 03/03/2021 16:12

Think of it like this.

You believe TWAW, TMAM and would call them by their pronouns, yes? You wouldn't dream of misgendering a transperson.

What if I said to you that calling me Cis and telling me that I have a gender identity is misgendering me? That I don't like it and don't want you to do it.

Why is it acceptable to you that you are perfectly okay with not respecting who I tell you I am and carry on calling me a cis woman but you get annoyed when it is the other way around?

Winesalot · 03/03/2021 16:13

some of those kids completely subvert the traditional ideas of what a man/women is meant to be or do in that culture as they grow up, they remain men and women. Some assert they're two-spirit and some of those will completely subvert traditional ideas of what a two-spirit person is meant to be or do in that culture and they remain two-spirit.

Righto.... so, I assert that I don't do what I am 'meant' to do or be what I am 'meant' to be. Many on this thread would agree and have told you.

This does seem to be very confused thinking. the whole fitting in with what people are 'meant' to do and be is stereotypes. Please explain why you believe they are not.

DrudgeJedd · 03/03/2021 16:13

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TheBuffster · 03/03/2021 16:13

@WhatWouldPhyllisCraneDo ds has beautiful lashes too. No idea where they came from, I suspect pixie involvement.

Abhannmor · 03/03/2021 16:13

@PurpleHoodie

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.
You could try referring to the 99.99 % as men or women.
ErrolTheDragon · 03/03/2021 16:13

their kids mostly assert they are one of the binary boy/girl identities. Some of those kids completely subvert the traditional ideas of what a man/women is meant to be or do in that culture as they grow up, they remain men and women.

That sounds like they know which of the two sexes they are, that they reject cultural stereotypes, and that their sex is immutable.

Hurrah! Sounds like what gc feminists think too!

CuriousaboutSamphire · 03/03/2021 16:13

Gender roles and stereotypes are completely different from gender identity. Cultures that have 5 genders exist, their kids mostly assert they are one of the binary boy/girl identities. Some of those kids completely subvert the traditional ideas of what a man/women is meant to be or do in that culture as they grow up, they remain men and women. Some assert they're two-spirit and some of those will completely subvert traditional ideas of what a two-spirit person is meant to be or do in that culture and they remain two-spirit.

Stop waffling. Start answering soe of the questions your previous posts have given rise to.

We are not impressed by such verbiage. Partly beacuse we actually undersrand it, have read it before and may even have taught the bloody subject!

You are talking about gender. Ideas, feelings, human expressions of self. All valid and open to change.

And all different from the human biology that hosts them!

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