Mumsnet says Trans Rights are Human Rights!

[ool0n]

I always assumed Mumsnet were not the biggest supporters of trans rights, given the stories about them. But this is a good statement on Twitter, "of course trans people exist, and of course trans rights are human rights"
twitter.com/MumsnetTowers/status/1367071394870276099

Also I thought using terms like cisgender or cis were against the rules, this isn't true either -
twitter.com/MumsnetTowers/status/1367080005193318401

So can I get a trans rights are human rights, trans women are women, trans men are men and non binary people are valid!

@megletsecond

I'd love to know what a "woman" "gender identity" is without referring to sexist stereotypes.

You won't find out on this thread, that much is clear!

@megletsecond

I'd love to know what a "woman" "gender identity" is without referring to sexist stereotypes.

Oh no if only someone was doing exactly that

I think there are some very loose definitions sweeping around this thread. Including the definition for transphobia.

Strangely, like other groups of words that lack definition and meaning and precision, so does the term transphobia when it is misused so regularly.

Oh no if only someone was doing exactly that

Could you reference the posts? Thanks.

On the concept of gender identity and it having nothing to do with stereotypes - this is where I find the whole thing confusing. I have been referred before to the 'gender bread' resource (www.genderbread.org/resource/genderbread-person-v4-0-poster)which explains in clear terms to children what gender identity is. So it should be simple for me to grasp, right? This resource, which is widely praised, says that 'gender identity' is where you fit on a scale of 'man-ness' and 'woman-ness'. And it lists as 'common gender identity things', things like "personality traits, hobbies, likes, dislikes, roles." That is just straight up sexed based stereotypes, however. It suggests in its explanatory notes that 'man' gender identity could encompass being a pilot, being loyal, strong, a leader, rational. And the 'woman' gender identity might be being a nurse, a knitter, caring, emotional. This is nothing but pure stereotypes. Is this wrong? And if it is wrong, what is gender identity and how do we quantify or measure it? How do I know what my gender identity is?

If you aren't convinced by gender bread, let's take a look at stonewall.Stonewall define gender identity as an "innate sense of one's own gender, whether male or female." This is confusing because male and female are sexed terms, not gendered terms but let's roll with it. So what is gender? Stonewall explains that gender is "explained in terms of masculinity and femininity" and is "culturally determined". This directly contradicts their definition on gender identity, then. Gender identity is supposed to be an innate sense, but you cannot have an innate sense of a social construct - how on earth would that evolutionary work? And which is it? Is gender to do with masculinity or femininity (which strikes me as just good old fashioned stereotypes, again) or is it to do with maleness or femaleness?

When I go out and read more about this stuff, it seems the primary resources are all terribly confused about the core concepts. So you can forgive me if I come away with the impression that gender identity has something to do with stereotypes!

@LouHotel

Just a continous thank you to mumsnet from me, you can argue they've been a bit heavy handed at times but they are walking a long tightrope and I have total respect for how they have weathered unfair criticism.

What Lou said. Thank you MNHQ. Thank you @RowanMumsnet.

@Sevensilverrings

What I hate the most....my young teen son, creative, probably gay (he thinks), individual, kind, strong, feels he can’t wear a skirt if he fancies it (he’s really into clothes) because it’s just too much hassle and ‘everyone wants to stick a label on him’. He’s not trans, but he gets called it, old he’s in denial, or repressed, and he actively has to push back that he’s just happy being himself and go into an explanation of fashion and drama and what he likes (his personality). The pressure on him and his peers is insane to fit in a box, to wear a label. In what way is that a good thing? Why can’t we just be individuals being ourselves, and expressing our personality? Why must that be gendered? I’m old. In the 70s I had a boxy hair cut and wore primary colours and dungarees. I was interchangeable with my siblings of both sex and in photos you can’t always tell our sex (until we’re teens). Surely the best thing for my kid, or trans kids, is just to accept our lovely diversity without the labels? Feminism has worked so so hard to get rid of the oppression of ‘gender identity’. Why are we going backwards? toys are back to pink and blue packaging, Lego is even gendered, as are bloody nerf guns. My boys female friends are under insane pressure to be a certain type of female, or to ‘perform female’ by looking and acting certain way, and posting those images for approval. No wonder some of them feel so utterly confused and angry. Two or three years ago they were little kids. We’ve backtracked so far in a couple of generations. (In some ways). Labels only ever confine. They don’t free us. Gender labels are a constraint and an oppression and they always have been. That’s why feminism fights so hard against them. They haven’t done women any favours. They aren’t currently doing my son any favours. I really worry for him. He’s not a label or an identity, he’s an individual.

👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

Oh for flips sake 🙄

@Winesalot

I mean.... I'm a woman so I guess it's my word too? And I'm very happy to apply it to trans woman.

Even in women's sport?

Even in roles set aside for women to influence policy for other women?

Even when a gender balanced board is 75% males? Even when a panel meant to encourage females to address the imbalance of females in parliament has 2 out of 6 speakers being male?

In ALL instances?

How about when that individual is a violent/rapist/murderer prisoner allowed into a women’s prison?

Let’s be clear, when women are made to be locked up, without consent and without any way of escape, with individuals such as this?

Read here

How about in shelters for vulnerable women and children, fleeing from DV? Rape crisis centres?

Do individuals who are not biological females belong in those spaces? Really think about this, please.

@merrymouse

Oh no if only someone was doing exactly that

Could you reference the posts? Thanks.

It doesn't matter what definition I provide, you won't be satisfied. So I'll stick with this one: a woman is an adult human who identifies as a woman.

Born female? You grow into a woman.
Trans woman? Oh look you're a woman.
Nonbinary people sometimes interact with the identity of woman too but I think we'll leave it there for now. But this definition is sort of a catch-all. It's probably not fool-proof though. I'm not exactly infallible.

No sexist stereotypes were seen...

It doesn't matter what definition I provide, you won't be satisfied. So I'll stick with this one: a woman is an adult human who identifies as a woman. I'd take it if it wasn't so obviously flawed. I can trot out any number of trite ripostes that fully refute it "And if I identify as a peacock on Wednesdays does that make me a peacock on Wednesdays?"

But this definition is sort of a catch-all. It's probably not fool-proof though. I'm not exactly infallible. It doesn't catch anything. It's more colander than definition!

It doesn't matter what definition I provide, you won't be satisfied. So I'll stick with this one: a woman is an adult human who identifies as a woman.

Adult humans are both male and female. So you're saying that a woman is someone who is either male or female? So we have male women and female women according to your definition? Do I understand you correctly?

Oh no if only someone was doing exactly that

Well quite. No one is doing it because no one is able to answer the question full stop (presumably because it cannot be answered without resorting to stereotypes).

a woman is an adult human who identifies as a woman.

I'm a woman because I was born female and grew to adulthood and had a female puberty (which was crap btw). Nowt to do with feelings. Just biology. I don't identify as a woman, I am one.

It doesn't matter what definition I provide, you won't be satisfied. So I'll stick with this one: a woman is an adult human who identifies as a woman.

That's not a definition at all. If it's good enough for you, fine, but don't expect us to buy such meaningless nonsense, even if nothing was at stake for us.

'I disapprove of what you say, but I willdefendto the deathyour rightto say it,'

And my right, to then disprove or disagree with what you say...

@octane Please don't use that term. It is offensive.

It doesn't matter what definition I provide, you won't be satisfied. So I'll stick with this one: a woman is an adult human who identifies as a woman.

A definition with the word you are definition in that definition is not a definition. It's called a circular definition and is not valid.

That's the most times I have ever posted the word 'definition' in one post

BigotryisBad
People have argued long and hard about whether jaffa cakes are cakes, or biscuits.
If someone said believing jaffa cakes are cakes is a belief what are they implying?

Is it:
A) Jaffa cakes dont exist.
B) Not everyone believes jaffa cakes are cakes.

So when I said believing transwomen are women is a belief I meant just that. Of course they exist, but whether or not they are women depends on your definition of the word woman.

Why are you so desperate to see hate and transphobia?

Let me try that again

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"

And my right, to then disprove or disagree with what you say...

Have you ever met any? In real life or online?