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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Mumsnet says Trans Rights are Human Rights!

999 replies

ool0n · 03/03/2021 14:39

I always assumed Mumsnet were not the biggest supporters of trans rights, given the stories about them. But this is a good statement on Twitter, "of course trans people exist, and of course trans rights are human rights"
twitter.com/MumsnetTowers/status/1367071394870276099

Also I thought using terms like cisgender or cis were against the rules, this isn't true either -
twitter.com/MumsnetTowers/status/1367080005193318401

So can I get a trans rights are human rights, trans women are women, trans men are men and non binary people are valid!

OP posts:
TransRightsRCool · 03/03/2021 18:14

@OvaHere

It doesn't matter what definition I provide, you won't be satisfied. So I'll stick with this one: a woman is an adult human who identifies as a woman.

Adult humans are both male and female. So you're saying that a woman is someone who is either male or female? So we have male women and female women according to your definition? Do I understand you correctly?

You do not understand me correctly at all.
CandyLeBonBon · 03/03/2021 18:14

I am not naturally maternal. I didn't grow up wanting babies and marriage. I make a shit nurse when people are ill, and I find caring duties necessary but sometimes tedious. I'm pretty handy with a hammer, can build my own flat pack furniture and I put my own bins out. I'm shit at maths but that's because I was told I was shit at maths from a young age.

I have long hair but I live in jeans. Sometimes I wear makeup and look passably attractive but must if the time I look haggard, old, tired and overworked. I can't remember the last time I wore heels. I don't care about pretty underwear and I'm past the age of giving a shit if men (or women) find me attractive.

I've spent years hating my body (so much so that I had an eating disorder) I have no mirrors in my house as I hate to see myself and I hate my photo being taken.

I guess that's a mild form of dysmorphia? I suspect how I feel about my body and the way it looks to me, and to the outside world, is not uncommon. BECAUSE OF A PATRIARCHAL SOCIAL CONSTRUCT THAT PROMOTES TOXIC, HEGEMONIC MASCULINITY AND FEMININITY IDEALS THAT ARE DAMAGING, ONE DIMENSIONAL CARICATURES OF HUMAN BEINGS.

I absolutely do NOT fit into a gendered box. Most people don't. You don't get to tell me which box I fit in. I'll afford you the same courtesy.

I don't expect the world to validate me. Why do you?

Sophoclesthefox · 03/03/2021 18:14

woman is an adult human who identifies as a woman

But I don’t identify as a woman. I cannot locate anything in me that says “yep, I’m a woman” that doesn’t relate to my physical reality of being a biological female. What would help me to identify as a woman?

CuriousaboutSamphire · 03/03/2021 18:15

You do not understand me correctly at all. But that is what you typed!

As I said, more colander than definition!

BarbaraofKent · 03/03/2021 18:15

Oh God I can't even post that properly!

A definition with the word you are defining in that definition is not a definition. It's called a circular definition and is not valid.

Ninkanink · 03/03/2021 18:15

Oops managed to link the flipped version!

Here it is the right way around (hopefully!)

JUDICIAL REVIEW, ROYAL COURTS OF JUSTICE March 2021

Dalyesque · 03/03/2021 18:16

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 03/03/2021 18:16

Don't deny it's validity Barabara! Even definitions have feeling you know!

TransRightsRCool · 03/03/2021 18:16

@Sophoclesthefox

woman is an adult human who identifies as a woman

But I don’t identify as a woman. I cannot locate anything in me that says “yep, I’m a woman” that doesn’t relate to my physical reality of being a biological female. What would help me to identify as a woman?

That would be entirely up to you as a person to explore within yourself.
OvaHere · 03/03/2021 18:17

You do not understand me correctly at all.

Okay, explain then because if a woman can be any adult human then it stands to reason that both sexes are represented within the word 'woman' according to what you posted.

loretta81 · 03/03/2021 18:17

This board is an echo chamber. Not all women find the term cis offensive, and you can be both a feminist and a supporter of TWAW. (Just not here, it seems Hmm)

ThreeB · 03/03/2021 18:17

@TransRightsRCool

What gender do you refer yourself as?
I don't have a gender. I rallied for years against the box that people wanted me in and I'm damned if I'm going to be put back in it by anyone. I'm me. No box required
CuriousaboutSamphire · 03/03/2021 18:18

That would be entirely up to you as a person to explore within yourself. Oh give over. That's not as esoteric as it sounded in your head!

MrsHusky · 03/03/2021 18:18

prefacing this with the fact this is just my personal opinion, i am aware not everyone will agree with my viewpoint, but its one garnered simply from being part of a large social scene that is LGBTQIA+ heavy, with the whole rainbow of sexualities and gender identities and a lot of conversations with people.

our Sex is biological.
Our Gender is mental/personal/ephemeral.

When we are born we are assumed to be the sex our genitals present as most closely. As that sex, it is assumed, as a child (For most parents) that their child will identify as the same Gender as our apparent biological sex.

However, as we mature and gain sense of 'self' for some people that simply doesn't flow. For some people, regardless of reason, when they think of themselves, their sense of 'self' doesn't match the societal accepted binary of their sex's matching Gender identity.

For some people, its to the point that they feel a strong disconnect between their sense of their Self and the genitals they possess, which is where Trans-gender comes into it.

There is a vast spectrum between Cis and Trans (using the words just as a descriptor) and most people will sit somewhere on that line, and todays society allows for that gender fluidity to be matched in how we present ourselves outwardly in our daily lives.

The vast majority of people who do not identify as the same gender as their outward biological sex, just want to get on with their lives and be accepted as the gender that matches their inward sense of self.

merrymouse · 03/03/2021 18:18

a woman is an adult human who identifies as a woman.

Can you not see that from a practical point of view this is completely useless?

If I want to establish possible reasons why there has never been a female Chancellor of the Exchequor in the U.K. and ensure women can participate equally in government I need language to explain what that means?

Do you not see why clear language is necessary?

TransRightsRCool · 03/03/2021 18:18

@CuriousaboutSamphire

You do not understand me correctly at all. But that is what you typed!

As I said, more colander than definition!

No you're twisting my words.
langclegflavoredbananamush · 03/03/2021 18:19

This reply has been deleted

Post references deleted post Talk Guidelines.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 03/03/2021 18:19

@loretta81

This board is an echo chamber. Not all women find the term cis offensive, and you can be both a feminist and a supporter of TWAW. (Just not here, it seems Hmm)
You really can't! TWAW gives away womens rights, dignity and safety without thought.

See MoJ in court today!

CuriousaboutSamphire · 03/03/2021 18:19

No you're twisting my words. And you're twisting my melon, man!

Winesalot · 03/03/2021 18:20

Born female? You grow into a woman.
Trans woman? Oh look you're a woman

And this definition seems to lack definition too. If a trans woman is to have access to rights set aside to protect and progress females on the basis of the oppression and discrimination that they have experienced for a millennia, surely a definition can be provided?

nancywhitehead · 03/03/2021 18:20

@WeeBisom

On the concept of gender identity and it having nothing to do with stereotypes - this is where I find the whole thing confusing. I have been referred before to the 'gender bread' resource (www.genderbread.org/resource/genderbread-person-v4-0-poster)which explains in clear terms to children what gender identity is. So it should be simple for me to grasp, right? This resource, which is widely praised, says that 'gender identity' is where you fit on a scale of 'man-ness' and 'woman-ness'. And it lists as 'common gender identity things', things like "personality traits, hobbies, likes, dislikes, roles." That is just straight up sexed based stereotypes, however. It suggests in its explanatory notes that 'man' gender identity could encompass being a pilot, being loyal, strong, a leader, rational. And the 'woman' gender identity might be being a nurse, a knitter, caring, emotional. This is nothing but pure stereotypes. Is this wrong? And if it is wrong, what is gender identity and how do we quantify or measure it? How do I know what my gender identity is?

If you aren't convinced by gender bread, let's take a look at stonewall.Stonewall define gender identity as an "innate sense of one's own gender, whether male or female." This is confusing because male and female are sexed terms, not gendered terms but let's roll with it. So what is gender? Stonewall explains that gender is "explained in terms of masculinity and femininity" and is "culturally determined". This directly contradicts their definition on gender identity, then. Gender identity is supposed to be an innate sense, but you cannot have an innate sense of a social construct - how on earth would that evolutionary work? And which is it? Is gender to do with masculinity or femininity (which strikes me as just good old fashioned stereotypes, again) or is it to do with maleness or femaleness?

When I go out and read more about this stuff, it seems the primary resources are all terribly confused about the core concepts. So you can forgive me if I come away with the impression that gender identity has something to do with stereotypes!

I agree with you there about the genderbread person. It does include a lot of stereotypes about "maleness" and "femaleness", and I suppose that is just reflective of our cultural understanding/ experience of those things.

If there were no stereotypes in the world about "male" or "female" then I suppose we would have a perfectly gender-neutral world. Everybody would have a sex of course but other than that, no one would be influenced in the way of girls liking pink, boys liking blue and all of those gender stereotypes.

Unfortunately though, that's just not the world we live in, as much as we would like to. We do have gender stereotypes, and some of them are very deep, unconscious biases that are difficult to get rid of, and I suppose we don't want to, or it would have happened.

These ideas and stereotypes possibly are a factor in people feeling they are the wrong gender. But the fact is that these norms are a part in our society and we can't erase them, so until society changes we just have to accept them as part of people's lived experiences. There is not really any point saying "but we shouldn't have gender stereotypes!" when in fact, we do.

TeenMinusTests · 03/03/2021 18:22

MrsHusky That seems to be a good starting point.

Can you write deeper into what a 'sense of self' means?

UhtredRagnarson · 03/03/2021 18:25

it is assumed, as a child (For most parents) that their child will identify as the same Gender as our apparent biological sex.

But what is the same gender as biological sex? Sex is either male or female. Neither of which is a gender identity so no child can identify as the same gender as their biological sex. There are hundreds of gender identities. Not a single one is called male or female.

fallfallfall · 03/03/2021 18:25

everyone needs their own safe spaces. i would prefer separate.

MrsHusky · 03/03/2021 18:26

@TeenMinusTests

MrsHusky That seems to be a good starting point.

Can you write deeper into what a 'sense of self' means?

im literally just about to eat dinner, but i'll have a think and come back to the thread a bit later (and do my best!)