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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

FFS re. Hilaria & Alec Baldwin and normalisation of surrogacy

238 replies

PatienceVirtue · 03/03/2021 14:15

www.etonline.com/hilaria-and-alec-baldwins-daughter-lucia-was-born-via-surrogate-161509

The Baldwins, a baby-hungry 'Spaniard' and rich Hollywood male, have had a sixth (sixth!) child six months after having their fifth. Apparently by surrogacy, well it wasn't carried by her obviously. Which means they implanted an embryo or embryos into some poor womb-holder while she was already heavily pregnant with their fifth child.

Why? FFS. I just don't understand it. Originally surrogacy was sold as solution to the utter misery of infertility and I feel a great deal of sympathy with this. But when it becomes the go-to of extremely wealthy families who already have numerous children (cf Kim Kardashian, Robbie Williams et al), then its exploitative and transactional nature is exposed.

I can't bear the way it's become so normalised to use women like ovens. Stop call it carrying a baby, like they're handbags. It's growing a baby from a microscopic dot to a newborn.

OP posts:
TableFlowerss · 12/03/2021 18:36

@MissBarbary

Where do you draw the line with intervention regrading making babies? Do you oppose to IVF because it’s not that standard way?

Yes, I do actually.

It’s not your place to decide whether thats morally wrong

It's certainly not your place to tell people that they have no right to express a view on the morality of surrogacy.

Nor to use your favourite phrase , is it "any of your business" to tell other posters they cannot campaign against surrogacy. Plenty of other countries have determined it is wrong. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to prevent anyone campaigning for the same position in the UK.

Well I’m not surprised you’ve got extremist views on the matter when you oppose to IVF too. I suppose you think they should ban abortion too? 🙄
TableFlowerss · 12/03/2021 18:39

@zzizzer

Table, this isn't like giving a friend a nice bunch of flowers or something because they really want it.

It's creating a unique person, it's creating and shaping someone's whole entire life.

No one is owed that - no one.

IVF does not create an orphan.

.... neither does surrogacy!
TableFlowerss · 12/03/2021 18:41

BTW I don’t believe in having preferred eggs for sex, eye colour, hate colour and the like and the thought of celebs paying for these ‘extras’ makes me feel sick.

OhHolyJesus · 12/03/2021 18:48

Here we go, always conflating abortion and reproductive rights with surrogacy and calling it all 'extreme' when anyone dared to have a dissenting opinion.

It’s not your place to decide whether thats morally wrong.

We all have a moral compass and we want decide what we do and don't agree with.

I have never been a victim of domestic abuse but it doesn't stop me from have empathy with, and campaigning for, women who do. Ditto breast cancer, ditto rape survivor. It's called empathy and to get a fully rounded view I listen to all of those involved in surrogacy, not just the media who propagate the fluffy version of events or the surrogacy agencies or family lawyers who benefit financially.

.... neither does surrogacy!

Surrogacy, by its very definition, removes a newly born baby from their mother. It doesn't create an orphan as the mother, I hope, is not dead, but she is absent and they do not know her as a mother, in fact many of not most surrogate mothers do not consider themselves to be a mother by virtue of having giving birth to them, but merely an 'orphan' or 'extreme babysitter'.

From Jan Moir in the Daily Mail today...Baldwin 'double babied'. Well how lovely and wholesome and not at selfish, narcissistic or exploitative. I hope they tell the little girl the origins of her birth and she knows her mother, the woman who gave birth to her and she doesn't take her money and run back to her own family to feed her own children with the womb rental money:

Potential parents using surrogates for motherhood is nothing new.

In the UK, parental orders transferring legal rights from a surrogate to the parents tripled from 121 in 2011 to 368 in 2018 — and one can only imagine the heartbreak and joy that lies behind those figures.

At the age of 73, newscaster Jon Snow and his wife Precious have just had a surrogate baby after 11 years of marriage and many medical setbacks and miscarriages.

‘We will always be deeply grateful to our surrogate who carried our embryo to term,’ he said this week.

Meanwhile, Alec and Hilaria Baldwin welcomed a surrogate daughter just months after she gave birth to their fifth child.

Hilaria said that she ‘double-babied’ because her children ‘were grieving’ for the child she had miscarried last year before getting pregnant again.

Confused? Read on.

A new BBC series The Surrogates told the story of Caitlin, who had a baby for her boss, Kate.

That might be taking company loyalty to extremes and one wonders what kind of corporate environment compliance allowed it to go ahead.

There is so much potential for surrogacy to go wrong. Many argue about the lack of boundaries and how it turns life itself into a commodity, along with potentially leaving children in lifelong confusion about the identity of their own mother.

On the other hand, it can bring untold joy to couples who might not otherwise be able to experience parenthood.

To want to have a child so much that you are prepared to go through all this says one very important thing — that the baby is cherished, wanted and needed, therefore already blessed.

Delphinium20 · 12/03/2021 18:54

I have never been a victim of domestic abuse but it doesn't stop me from have empathy with, and campaigning for, women who do. Ditto breast cancer, ditto rape survivor. It's called empathy and to get a fully rounded view I listen to all of those involved in surrogacy, not just the media who propagate the fluffy version of events or the surrogacy agencies or family lawyers who benefit financially.*

Well said!

MissBarbary · 12/03/2021 19:11

At the age of 73, newscaster Jon Snow and his wife Precious have just had a surrogate baby after 11 years of marriage and many medical setbacks and miscarriages

I didn't know that. He is so sanctimonious on Channel 4 News.

As for opposing surrogacy being an extreme view - does TableFlowers think the governments of Italy, Spain, France, Portugal, Bulgaria and Sweden are extremists? They ban surrogacy.

MissBarbary · 12/03/2021 19:15

@TableFlowerss

BTW I don’t believe in having preferred eggs for sex, eye colour, hate colour and the like and the thought of celebs paying for these ‘extras’ makes me feel sick.
But buying the basic model baby is just fine.
TableFlowerss · 12/03/2021 19:59

But buying the basic model baby is just fine

I have given specific examples of when a family member or close friend CHOSE to do it for someone they care about. They are willing to put themselves through it for love, not money!!!! 🙄

TableFlowerss · 12/03/2021 20:04

@MissBarbary

At the age of 73, newscaster Jon Snow and his wife Precious have just had a surrogate baby after 11 years of marriage and many medical setbacks and miscarriages

I didn't know that. He is so sanctimonious on Channel 4 News.

As for opposing surrogacy being an extreme view - does TableFlowers think the governments of Italy, Spain, France, Portugal, Bulgaria and Sweden are extremists? They ban surrogacy.

What other countries do/do not agree with is of no concern.

Some countries support euthanasia. They think it’s perfectly reasonable and it’s completely legal. Not all countries share the same view.

Some countries support the woman’s choice for abortion, some have all but made it criminal.

Choice and freedom to chose is what I believe. If a consenting adult wants to do this for a loved one then it’s no business of anyone’s.

TableFlowerss · 12/03/2021 20:07

@OhHolyJesus

Here we go, always conflating abortion and reproductive rights with surrogacy and calling it all 'extreme' when anyone dared to have a dissenting opinion.

It’s not your place to decide whether thats morally wrong.

We all have a moral compass and we want decide what we do and don't agree with.

I have never been a victim of domestic abuse but it doesn't stop me from have empathy with, and campaigning for, women who do. Ditto breast cancer, ditto rape survivor. It's called empathy and to get a fully rounded view I listen to all of those involved in surrogacy, not just the media who propagate the fluffy version of events or the surrogacy agencies or family lawyers who benefit financially.

.... neither does surrogacy!

Surrogacy, by its very definition, removes a newly born baby from their mother. It doesn't create an orphan as the mother, I hope, is not dead, but she is absent and they do not know her as a mother, in fact many of not most surrogate mothers do not consider themselves to be a mother by virtue of having giving birth to them, but merely an 'orphan' or 'extreme babysitter'.

From Jan Moir in the Daily Mail today...Baldwin 'double babied'. Well how lovely and wholesome and not at selfish, narcissistic or exploitative. I hope they tell the little girl the origins of her birth and she knows her mother, the woman who gave birth to her and she doesn't take her money and run back to her own family to feed her own children with the womb rental money:

Potential parents using surrogates for motherhood is nothing new.

In the UK, parental orders transferring legal rights from a surrogate to the parents tripled from 121 in 2011 to 368 in 2018 — and one can only imagine the heartbreak and joy that lies behind those figures.

At the age of 73, newscaster Jon Snow and his wife Precious have just had a surrogate baby after 11 years of marriage and many medical setbacks and miscarriages.

‘We will always be deeply grateful to our surrogate who carried our embryo to term,’ he said this week.

Meanwhile, Alec and Hilaria Baldwin welcomed a surrogate daughter just months after she gave birth to their fifth child.

Hilaria said that she ‘double-babied’ because her children ‘were grieving’ for the child she had miscarried last year before getting pregnant again.

Confused? Read on.

A new BBC series The Surrogates told the story of Caitlin, who had a baby for her boss, Kate.

That might be taking company loyalty to extremes and one wonders what kind of corporate environment compliance allowed it to go ahead.

There is so much potential for surrogacy to go wrong. Many argue about the lack of boundaries and how it turns life itself into a commodity, along with potentially leaving children in lifelong confusion about the identity of their own mother.

On the other hand, it can bring untold joy to couples who might not otherwise be able to experience parenthood.

To want to have a child so much that you are prepared to go through all this says one very important thing — that the baby is cherished, wanted and needed, therefore already blessed.

Your pony isn’t any more validated because you’ve copied and pasted from an article......

It actually conflicts, as the bottom paragraphs see the positive aspect of it.

All that orphan rubbish....

TableFlowerss · 12/03/2021 20:08

point

BirthChoice · 12/03/2021 20:09

It’s not a rumour or a blind item that they used a surrogate to have a girl.
There is literally a post on her Instagram after this newest baby was born saying that they’d promised their children a sister.

zzizzer · 12/03/2021 20:10

You might not like it, but it IS an issue for other people and saying it doesn't involve others is incorrect. It isn't just about a bunch of consenting adults, and it isn't even always that either.

Clearly someone you know has benefited from this, and you don't like that some people think its abominable - because you're protective over them.

But this isn't about you, your loved ones, or what you personally would like.

It's about the rights of women who don't always get to make a "loving gift" decision without any negative consequences, and (for me) about the rights of those who are created and torn away from their mums in an instant - something which in adoption circles is known to be so goddamn damaging that its limited as much as possible.

MissBarbary · 12/03/2021 20:57

Choice and freedom to chose is what I believe. If a consenting adult wants to do this for a loved one then it’s no business of anyone’s

I don't know what magic spell you think you are invoking by the repetition of "it's no business of anyone’s".

Are you really so incapable of seeing the wider implications? Well clearly you are.

What other countries do/do not agree with is of no concern - what a bizarre mindset.

Some countries do things better for their citizens than us. It's a pretty routine analytical practice when governments are considering legal and social reform on a particular issue to analyse the methods adopted in other countries.

AIMD · 12/03/2021 21:25

This thread prompted me to fall down a rabbit hole of articles about surrogacy.

Just had s look at the law reform consultation someone linked earlier. They’re proposing that ‘intended parents’ be legal parents from birth. I really don’t like that. It does say they’d purpose for the surrogate to have a period of time to object but what does that mean.

TableFlowerss · 12/03/2021 21:34

@zzizzer

You might not like it, but it IS an issue for other people and saying it doesn't involve others is incorrect. It isn't just about a bunch of consenting adults, and it isn't even always that either.

Clearly someone you know has benefited from this, and you don't like that some people think its abominable - because you're protective over them.

But this isn't about you, your loved ones, or what you personally would like.

It's about the rights of women who don't always get to make a "loving gift" decision without any negative consequences, and (for me) about the rights of those who are created and torn away from their mums in an instant - something which in adoption circles is known to be so goddamn damaging that its limited as much as possible.

Oh I don’t know anyone personally or even remotely that has benefited from this.

If we’re taking about where my opinions come from- Personally when we decided we wanted to try for our first DC I was lucky enough to fall pregnant the first month. I couldn’t believe my luck considering it takes the average couple 6 months.

When we decided to try for our second DC, I fell pregnant the first month again. I’ve never had a miscarriage and both pregnancies were fine.

I felt I was extremely lucky and that most people aren’t that lucky, especially with both pregnancies. I never had to feel the disappointment of seeing a negative pregnancy test month after month and wondering if I’d ever fall pregnant.

I felt somewhat guilty that I was so lucky and I felt sadness for those that took a long time to conceive as the worry and stress much have been immense. I felt so sorry for those that turned out to have fertility problems and would never be able to have their own children.

I knew I was lucky and I often thought how tragic it must be for those that will never see that ‘positive’ test.

TableFlowerss · 12/03/2021 21:38

@MissBarbary

Choice and freedom to chose is what I believe. If a consenting adult wants to do this for a loved one then it’s no business of anyone’s

I don't know what magic spell you think you are invoking by the repetition of "it's no business of anyone’s".

Are you really so incapable of seeing the wider implications? Well clearly you are.

What other countries do/do not agree with is of no concern - what a bizarre mindset.

Some countries do things better for their citizens than us. It's a pretty routine analytical practice when governments are considering legal and social reform on a particular issue to analyse the methods adopted in other countries.

Epic failure to see the point of different countries adopting different laws!
LizziesTwin · 12/03/2021 21:58

I think that when a couple decide to have a baby via a surrogate mother one of them should donate a kidney. If they aren’t willing to make that sacrifice/take the risk they shouldn’t ask a woman to risk her life & health for them. Yes, it’s an extreme position but you are asking the surrogate mother for so much.

OhHolyJesus · 12/03/2021 22:01

They’re proposing that ‘intended parents’ be legal parents from birth. I really don’t like that. It does say they’d purpose for the surrogate to have a period of time to object but what does that mean.

The headlines are:

In Scotland a woman who has had a baby 'intended' for other people to be the parents, she has 5 weeks, postpartum to get a lawyer and submit an application for parental rights to be returned to her (as they were her's until the birth).

In England and Wales it would be 6 weeks.

So, for those of us who have experienced pregnancy and the hormonal changes after birth, with your milk kicking in and the changes in your body and mental state, you would have to be balanced and stable and confident in yourself and solid in your choice to enact that process and prepare for a court battle.

In most states in the US commercial surrogacy is legal and there are pre-birth orders which do a number of things but essentially you own the woman and the baby inside her. Commercial contracts dictate diet, the pumping of breast milk etc. Some have no-sex clauses.

The proposed model (evident in the consultation documents, the draft Bill is due our early next year) from the Law Commission is somewhere in between the US commercial model and the current model which is where the commissioning parents have to submit a parental order within the first 6 months of the baby's life, and the mother signs over those rights much later on and in the meantime a social worker assesses the parents and the home where they have custody of the child.

giantwaterbottle · 12/03/2021 22:03

I know it sounds dramatic but it makes me sick. Just so distasteful and utterly wrong!

SuddenArborealStop · 12/03/2021 22:07

I got called a Karen for pointing out his privilege on Instagram Grin I'm a bit looking forward to him reacting angrily... I've had a drink though ,tomorrow I'll be Blush

OhHolyJesus · 12/03/2021 22:11

Epic failure to see the point of different countries adopting different laws!

Most of Europe ban all forms of surrogacy. India banned commercial surrogacy in 2019, allowing it only within close family members Ana to coupes with proven infertility. Thailand famously banned after an Australian convicted paedophile and his wife commissioned twins from a women living in poverty. When it was discovered that the twin boy, Gammy, had Down's syndrome he was disowned, the baby girl, Pipah, flew home with the couple Ana the mother raised Gammy with financial help from donations and charities, seeing as she never expected to be a mother and be responsible for raising a chins but she refused to abort him, at their suggestion.

Pipah has weekly lessons about why she could be alone with her father until his death last year.

There is currently some review of laws surrounding surrogacy in Kenya and there major international conversations going on, which were highlighted again by the babies abandoned in Kiev and the death of a baby in Russia.

Based on the above, why do you think surrogacy - both altruistic and commercial - are largely illegal in both developed, wealthy, European countries and in countries where their citizens live in poverty and their laws have been changed to protect women?

MissBarbary · 12/03/2021 22:18

Epic failure to see the point of different countries adopting different laws!

The "epic failure" is yours. Your posts are getting more and more bizarre. I don't know how anyone could read OhHolyJesus's post and carry on thinking what other countries do is irrelevant

TableFlowerss · 12/03/2021 22:21

@MissBarbary

Epic failure to see the point of different countries adopting different laws!

The "epic failure" is yours. Your posts are getting more and more bizarre. I don't know how anyone could read OhHolyJesus's post and carry on thinking what other countries do is irrelevant

😂 says you.
TableFlowerss · 12/03/2021 22:25

@OhHolyJesus

Epic failure to see the point of different countries adopting different laws!

Most of Europe ban all forms of surrogacy. India banned commercial surrogacy in 2019, allowing it only within close family members Ana to coupes with proven infertility. Thailand famously banned after an Australian convicted paedophile and his wife commissioned twins from a women living in poverty. When it was discovered that the twin boy, Gammy, had Down's syndrome he was disowned, the baby girl, Pipah, flew home with the couple Ana the mother raised Gammy with financial help from donations and charities, seeing as she never expected to be a mother and be responsible for raising a chins but she refused to abort him, at their suggestion.

Pipah has weekly lessons about why she could be alone with her father until his death last year.

There is currently some review of laws surrounding surrogacy in Kenya and there major international conversations going on, which were highlighted again by the babies abandoned in Kiev and the death of a baby in Russia.

Based on the above, why do you think surrogacy - both altruistic and commercial - are largely illegal in both developed, wealthy, European countries and in countries where their citizens live in poverty and their laws have been changed to protect women?

Again, different countries have different rules/laws and again irrelevant to the UK.

Some countries ban the burka? Does that mean we should? Don’t be so ridiculous!! Women should have the choice

Some counties legalise prostitution- died that mean we should, based on that? 🙄

For a feminist board, it’s very anti women’s rights....