FFS re. Hilaria & Alec Baldwin and normalisation of surrogacy

[PatienceVirtue]

www.etonline.com/hilaria-and-alec-baldwins-daughter-lucia-was-born-via-surrogate-161509

The Baldwins, a baby-hungry 'Spaniard' and rich Hollywood male, have had a sixth (sixth!) child six months after having their fifth. Apparently by surrogacy, well it wasn't carried by her obviously. Which means they implanted an embryo or embryos into some poor womb-holder while she was already heavily pregnant with their fifth child.

Why? FFS. I just don't understand it. Originally surrogacy was sold as solution to the utter misery of infertility and I feel a great deal of sympathy with this. But when it becomes the go-to of extremely wealthy families who already have numerous children (cf Kim Kardashian, Robbie Williams et al), then its exploitative and transactional nature is exposed.

I can't bear the way it's become so normalised to use women like ovens. Stop call it carrying a baby, like they're handbags. It's growing a baby from a microscopic dot to a newborn.

Yet again indeed. It never stops. I'm not surprised that young woman like this one

www.thesun.co.uk/tv/14248799/surrogate-baby-lockdown/

Is...
Finding her value in her ability to have babies
Thinks she will find the lifelong friendship she clearly hopes for if she gives these men a baby
Says she isn't doing it for the money but she is a single mother (it doesn't say if she is employed or not)
Choosing to ignore her mum's warning and she thinks she will have a relationship with the baby girl

The same applies to donating your egg which is less like having a haircut for a wig to be made for cancer patients but more like giving away your DNA and future children.

The libfem/be kind/her body her choice approach will not end well for women who cannot stop it from leaking into their lives, thought process and decision making.

This really is terrible.
I had a thread earlier this week about the BBC3 coverage: The Surrrogates starting and a 23 year old single mother being a surrogate mother for a male couple.

She had already disclosed feeling very low, feeling that life was not worth continuing before meeting the chaps via an app which links people up for surrogacy.

Just hearing that should be enough to understand that the women taking on this role are by their very nature vulnerable, whether through their relationships (single mum V couple), socio-economic background, and self-esteem.
The power imbalance is huge. And power imbalances almost always lead to that power being abused.

The arguments about this being women's choice, live and let live approach is that it doesn't safeguard the vulnerable.

People lobbying for relaxation of laws and introduction of a much more commercial approach have considerable vested interest in surrogacy laws favouring the would-be parents over the surrogate mother.

It got me thinking about countries where surrogacy is banned
completely, Sweden and Germany for example.
Both countries have banned surrogacy. It can't be because these nations are not progressive. They are known for having good health and social safety systems for their societies though.

The same applies to donating your egg which is less like having a haircut for a wig to be made for cancer patients but more like giving away your DNA and future children.

Well said.

She’s had her baby daughter’s ears pierced, you can see it in her most recent insta photo Obviously not her son’s though. I remember crying when my newborn had to have the heel prick test (hormonal), I can’t imagine willingly piercing her ears the babies just seem to be fancy dolls to be styled for photos.

@WeRoarSometimes

In a way I find it more worrying when a couple without fertility issues (they've had 5 babies) chooses to find a surrogate mother to nourish and grow a child for them. I guess it is because they can pay and they probably didn't consider there was an issues of ethics.

I will believe that surrogacy is ethical and altruistic the day I see a rich woman carrying a baby for a poor one.

@WeRoarSometimes

This really is terrible. I had a thread earlier this week about the BBC3 coverage: The Surrrogates starting and a 23 year old single mother being a surrogate mother for a male couple.

She had already disclosed feeling very low, feeling that life was not worth continuing before meeting the chaps via an app which links people up for surrogacy.

Just hearing that should be enough to understand that the women taking on this role are by their very nature vulnerable, whether through their relationships (single mum V couple), socio-economic background, and self-esteem.
The power imbalance is huge. And power imbalances almost always lead to that power being abused.

I've watched the first two episodes of this

It isn't comfortable viewing. I felt that there was a huge power imbalance in at least two of the three instances I saw, and even the third one was disquieting ("As a gay man I don't have access to a womb."). Someone on another thread has suggested that he is autistic, and that may be so, but in NO instance did I get the impression that the child was the focus of attention - always the adoptive parents (I assume they so have to adopt the baby, because even if using eggs/sperm from a couple, the birth mother is, as far as I am aware, the legal mother of the child.

[quote littlebillie]I think this was awful last year

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/news.sky.com/story/amp/coronavirus-dozens-of-babies-stranded-without-parents-due-to-border-closures-11988587[/quote]
That is heartbreaking.

the birth mother is, as far as I am aware, the legal mother of the child.

This is true but adoption is not needed if one of the commissioning parents is also the genetic parent then the process is a parental order and adoption (with all that entails) is not required.

In the case of David, the single gay man, (and wasn't he cross that he needed a woman or two) it was his sperm and the egg of another woman, that made Baby Miles so Faye, the birth mother and legal mother, signs her parental responsibly and legal parental rights over with a parental order and David can avoid the adoption process.

Much of made of this with the Faye's husband. It was framed as a 'bad thing' as he didn't want parental responsibility, but it is set up this way so men cannot 'pimp' our their wives for baby-making without some of the legal responsibility.

Thank you Holy. I didn't know the full legalities.

TBH I thought that Faye's husband had his head well screwed on - I can understand that he might not be left with another man's child to raise (especially as it seems that they had decided that two children were right for their own family).

I also wonder how things would play out if the commissioning parents decided for whatever reason that they didn't want the baby (eg, wife becomes pregnant after all: baby is born with a defect - horrible word, but you know what I mean - one partner dies and other can't bear the thought of bringing up the baby themselves - particularly, perhaps, if they had no genetic input).

I'm sure I can remember an instance some years ago when a couple (I think they were American) refused to take their baby because s/he was Down's syndromes, and the mother, already very poor (Korean or Thai, I think) was left with an extra mouth to feed. (I only mention nationalities because it goes towards the power imbalances involved - white wealthy privilege vs poor women of colour).

To me it is "selling children" and I also think that many, if not most, of these women have no idea of the emotional heartbreak they are setting themselves up for.

There was a programme some time ago about surrogacy in the US where the imbalance worked the other way - a couple paid a huge sum to a woman to carry a baby for them - in addition to which she was demanding extra stuff right, left and centre - and then she declined to give them the baby. I'm pretty sure she also claimed child maintenance, too. This is apparently not uncommon.

You're right on all points Schaden

See the links here for Brigette who was rejected by commissioning parents

stopsurrogacynowuk.org/documentaries/

For the other story you mentioned look up David and Wendy Farnell 60 mins or Baby Gammy.

...and as for women cheating commissioning couples, that happens too.

www.falmouthpacket.co.uk/news/11281337.devon-womans-surrogate-pregnancy-scam-cheated-cornish-victims/

So tighter regulations are needed, not fewer, and even then what does that sanction?

Exactly! It's just wrong. These are babies. Little helpless lives.

I get so annoyed when people say "But it will happen anyway so why not legalise it?"

Rape happens anyway.

Murder happens anyway.

Child abuse happens anyway.

Should we just legalise all of these, too?

Yes exactly, and based on what we know about rape, it's pretty much decriminalised.

When the judiciary/ministry of justice shows such disregard for women it's unsurprising when as a sex class we either don't exist or when we do exist it's for a function or a purpose.

In related news, I hear the next season of Handmaids Tale is out in the 19th on Hulu...