FFS re. Hilaria & Alec Baldwin and normalisation of surrogacy

[PatienceVirtue]

www.etonline.com/hilaria-and-alec-baldwins-daughter-lucia-was-born-via-surrogate-161509

The Baldwins, a baby-hungry 'Spaniard' and rich Hollywood male, have had a sixth (sixth!) child six months after having their fifth. Apparently by surrogacy, well it wasn't carried by her obviously. Which means they implanted an embryo or embryos into some poor womb-holder while she was already heavily pregnant with their fifth child.

Why? FFS. I just don't understand it. Originally surrogacy was sold as solution to the utter misery of infertility and I feel a great deal of sympathy with this. But when it becomes the go-to of extremely wealthy families who already have numerous children (cf Kim Kardashian, Robbie Williams et al), then its exploitative and transactional nature is exposed.

I can't bear the way it's become so normalised to use women like ovens. Stop call it carrying a baby, like they're handbags. It's growing a baby from a microscopic dot to a newborn.

Ugh. What a level of entitlement those two must have. I misread the headline originally and thought she had got pregnant six months after having her 5th child i.e. had a baby with an 18 month age gap, nothing too unusual about that. Hiring a surrogate for a six month age gap when you already have 5 healthy living children? Horrible. Children are not accessories to be bought and arranged to fit your lifestyle.

Surrogacy is abhorrent whatever the circumstances & this is particularly disgusting.

Yes but both NK and SJP carried their first babies to term themselves?

At the time NK was pregnant there was internet speculation that it was a fake bump and after she was pictured in tight white pants two weeks after giving birth I pretty much believed them.

It’s not that she was so thin whilst supposedly pregnant - it’s that if the bump was removed she’d look exactly the same. No puffiness, no prominent veins, there was a lot of bump holding but her centre of gravity looked non pregnant. It’s not that she was so slender - Angelina Jolie was also very slim but she had really prominent veins and that facial, hormonal puffiness. Rumours in Australia are that her sister was the “gestational carrier” for both.

@OhHolyJesus

It was almost like she was giving birth herself

Or perhaps she is feeling like she's pregnant too...like this sister.

https://www.sheknows.com/parenting/articles/2410259/reddit-surrogate-sister-pregnancy-fight/

God...that's just awful. I used to think sibling surrogates isn't the same as commercial...but then you read things like that. Yikes.

With adoption I'm sorry to say that from what I see it is considered a back up plan and 'second rate' due to the lack of a bio connection and likely 'damaged goods'

This attitude is often expressed on MN. Oh adoptive parents are wonderful ... I couldn't do it ... Adopted children come with baggage

I'm happy to say that my (adopted) DD is neither second best or damaged goods.

So sick and sad. Those poor accessories children.

I can't believe how unregulated it is. It's unconscionable to impregnate a surrogate while already pregnant yourself.

I used to think sibling surrogates isn't the same as commercial...but then you read things like that. Yikes.

I think 'altruistic' surrogacy in families can actually be worse, whilst I don't like the transactional nature of human trafficking surrogacy I do think that in some ways it makes that separation 'easier' to process (for the adults)a Within families there are risks of coercion and abuse. We've seen it on here, although coercion and abuse takes place in both methods.

There is a sibling story in Renate Klein's book that illustrates it perfectly, I would say that it was a mild example and appears to be all lovely and fluffy from the outside.

I'm happy to say that my (adopted) DD is neither second best or damaged goods.

I'm sure she is neither of those things either. I read the adoption board and find it very uplifting. I don't mean to sound patronising at all, I truly find people who adopt to be special, it's such a beautiful thing. I wish more people did it. I didn't, my husband was against the idea and it does need to be both of you 100% on board from the very beginning, just with the idea.

I hate the comparison between surrogacy and adoption as for me there is no comparison to be made at all, they are entirely opposite.

@BenoneBeauty

Surrogacy is abhorrent whatever the circumstances & this is particularly disgusting.

That’s a very thoughtless thing to say! There are some circumstances where it’s they only chance that a woman has to have her own baby.

Would you object if a gay couple used a surrogate in order to have a baby?

Would you object to a friend of someone that’s lost their womb due to cancer treatments, offering to be a surrogate for the poor women?

Easy for you to say eh 🙄

Would you object if a gay couple used a surrogate in order to have a baby?

Yes. Of course - why not?

Would you object to a friend of someone that’s lost their womb due to cancer treatments, offering to be a surrogate for the poor women?

Yes. It's sad but it doesn't make surrogacy acceptable.

As an infertile woman who had multiple miscarriages and ended up without children, I 100% object to surrogacy in every single case, yes.

That kind of emotional blackmail doesn't work with me, and I know others feel the same.

It’s none of your decisions to make though!! That’s the point!! If it’s allowed and legal then it’s none if your business what a person/couple decides to do....

It shouldn't be allowed or legal though, that's the point. (And those two things are not a sign that something is okay!)

@TableFlowerss

It’s none of your decisions to make though!! That’s the point!! If it’s allowed and legal then it’s none if your business what a person/couple decides to do....

Many countries, including countries which previously allowed surrogacy, ban it completely. The UK unfortunately is not one of them.

If I, or anyone else, want to express an opinion on surrogacy and at the same time to seek to persuade the UK to adopt the same position as many other countries it certainly isn't your business to say that we may not do so.

@zzizzer

It shouldn't be allowed or legal though, that's the point. (And those two things are not a sign that something is okay!)

Exactly.Very few things would ever change if TableFlowers' logic were applied

I’m absolutely appalled by this. Like another poster has already said, it astounds me when women who have experienced pregnancy pay another woman to go through it. I had a horrendous pregnancy and the birth wasn’t great either- I couldn’t in good conscience ask another woman to go through those risks for me. Even if all is ‘normal, pregnancy is a risky business! They already have a big family. It’s disgusting to then grow it at the expense of another woman.

I think it’s worse in this case because the inference seems to be they’ve selected a female embryo because they were desperate for a girl.

Maybe in the obscure Spanish village Hilaria hails from this is customary.

Exactly.Very few things would ever change if TableFlowers' logic were applied

@MissBarbary

Thankfully you don’t speak for everyone. What you believe to be be disgusting, is the best gift in the world for someone else. No one is forcing or insisting you take part so again, it doesn’t concern you personally - hence none of your business!

I've lost count of how many times I've said this but it's not about a gift (and it is not always a gift it is a transaction).

It's about the attachment disorder. It's purposefully creating a child and orphaning them from their biological mum. It is the very definition of disgusting.

@TableFlowerss

*Exactly.Very few things would ever change if TableFlowers' logic were applied*

@MissBarbary

Thankfully you don’t speak for everyone. What you believe to be be disgusting, is the best gift in the world for someone else. No one is forcing or insisting you take part so again, it doesn’t concern you personally - hence none of your business!

The idea that just because one isn't personally affected by an issue makes it none of one's business is nonsense. Does the idea of the concept of wider, societal implications and the status of women have any resonance for you?

Italy, Spain, France, Portugal, Bulgaria and Germanyprohibit surrogacy in all forms.I think Thailand might have moved to that. I'm glad they do and I would support lobbying to make UK law the same.

@zzizzer

I've lost count of how many times I've said this but it's not about a gift (and it is not always a gift it is a transaction).

It's about the attachment disorder. It's purposefully creating a child and orphaning them from their biological mum. It is the very definition of disgusting.

That’s one way to look at it. Another way to look at it is somebody (a friend/relative) wants to help out someone they care about who can’t carry a baby. They offer to carry the baby and they give the baby to it’s biological parents who would be thrilled that someone would do that.

It’s not your place to decide whether thats morally wrong.

Where do you draw the line with intervention regrading making babies? Do you oppose to IVF because it’s not that standard way?

Where do you draw the line with intervention regrading making babies? Do you oppose to IVF because it’s not that standard way?

Yes, I do actually.

It’s not your place to decide whether thats morally wrong

It's certainly not your place to tell people that they have no right to express a view on the morality of surrogacy.

Nor to use your favourite phrase , is it "any of your business" to tell other posters they cannot campaign against surrogacy. Plenty of other countries have determined it is wrong. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to prevent anyone campaigning for the same position in the UK.

Many women who have experienced infertility are opposed to surrogacy and did not pursue that as an option to becoming a parent.

No one is owed a baby. No one is owed a woman's body to gestate "their" baby. I think this celebrity surrogacy is especially problematic because they have so much privilege and money.

Even still how could anyone ask that of another woman? That's what boggles my mind...how could you ask someone to risk their health and life for you to have a 5th baby? It's exactly why we most people are against forced birth because pregnancy and birth is not something you should dictate or demand of others. It's why women can have abortions (not everywhere, sadly) even if their partners are opposed to the abortion.

Appalling. I also agree surrogacy is wrong in any circumstance.

For the record, I'm not opposed to IVF.

Table, this isn't like giving a friend a nice bunch of flowers or something because they really want it.

It's creating a unique person, it's creating and shaping someone's whole entire life.

No one is owed that - no one.

IVF does not create an orphan.