FFS re. Hilaria & Alec Baldwin and normalisation of surrogacy

[PatienceVirtue]

www.etonline.com/hilaria-and-alec-baldwins-daughter-lucia-was-born-via-surrogate-161509

The Baldwins, a baby-hungry 'Spaniard' and rich Hollywood male, have had a sixth (sixth!) child six months after having their fifth. Apparently by surrogacy, well it wasn't carried by her obviously. Which means they implanted an embryo or embryos into some poor womb-holder while she was already heavily pregnant with their fifth child.

Why? FFS. I just don't understand it. Originally surrogacy was sold as solution to the utter misery of infertility and I feel a great deal of sympathy with this. But when it becomes the go-to of extremely wealthy families who already have numerous children (cf Kim Kardashian, Robbie Williams et al), then its exploitative and transactional nature is exposed.

I can't bear the way it's become so normalised to use women like ovens. Stop call it carrying a baby, like they're handbags. It's growing a baby from a microscopic dot to a newborn.

@SuddenArborealStop

I got called a Karen for pointing out his privilege on Instagram I'm a bit looking forward to him reacting angrily... I've had a drink though ,tomorrow I'll be

A wealthy white man calling you a Karen. That's rich.

A lot of relatively rich white ladies called me Karen amongst other things , on reflection people who follow him on Instagram are not my audience

@TableFlowerss
It’s a woman’s right to be a mother? I have heard it all now.
Have you ever faced a high risk pregnancy?

@TableFlowerss I'll ask again...

Why do you think those countries that ban both forms of surrogacy do so?

It’s a woman’s right to be a mother? I have heard it all now.

Ooh careful there @Thewithesarehere don't forget the menz...

Gay and single men have rights to be fathers too, in the name of 'fertility equality', they are disadvantaged you see. The poor men can't make babies on their own they need our help. Poor things, it's basically discrimination if we object to womb rental as a concept, deeply homophobic it is to suggest it's anything but a joyous and empowering experience to give babies away.

Cry me a river.

[quote Thewithesarehere]@TableFlowerss
It’s a woman’s right to be a mother? I have heard it all now.
Have you ever faced a high risk pregnancy?[/quote]
I’ll correct you - It’s a woman’s right, to chose if she wants to be a surrogate for someone she cares about! No one else’s business

It’s a woman’s right, to chose if she wants to be a surrogate for someone she cares about! No one else’s business

And the baby, do they have any say in this?

Should children have rights or are they gifts to be bought and sold?

[quote OhHolyJesus]@TableFlowerss I'll ask again...

Why do you think those countries that ban both forms of surrogacy do so?

[/quote]
I’ve not disputed it can be problematic in some instances such as the one this original thread covers.

Receiving payment to carry a baby for a stranger, where the argument could be the woman felt pressure etc isn’t the same as the scenario I’ve described.

Banning it completely is pointless as if someone has enough money, they’ll find a way only it’ll be underground/off the radar where month and baby could be at significant harm!

@OhHolyJesus

It’s a woman’s right to be a mother? I have heard it all now.

Ooh careful there @Thewithesarehere don't forget the menz...

Gay and single men have rights to be fathers too, in the name of 'fertility equality', they are disadvantaged you see. The poor men can't make babies on their own they need our help. Poor things, it's basically discrimination if we object to womb rental as a concept, deeply homophobic it is to suggest it's anything but a joyous and empowering experience to give babies away.

Cry me a river.

If a woman wants to divot for her gay friend - who are you to say no?!?!

And it’s ironic that you say ‘if we object’ as if the surrogate is being forced, even that’s the the case at all, but hey, let’s not put facts in that detract from your narrative

No one else’s business

Speaking of business...any idea how much a membership is to non-profit surrogacy agencies like Surrogacy U.K. or newly launched My Surrogacy Journey?

Any idea how much it costs per hour for a family lawyer to write out a surrogacy 'contract' that isn't currently enforceable in U.K. law?

Any thoughts on what 'expenses' can be charged and what can and can't be included and associated with a surrogacy pregnancy?

Have you any clue on how many billions of dollars the surrogacy industry will be worth by 2025?

even though that’s NOT the case

@OhHolyJesus

No one else’s business

Speaking of business...any idea how much a membership is to non-profit surrogacy agencies like Surrogacy U.K. or newly launched My Surrogacy Journey?

Any idea how much it costs per hour for a family lawyer to write out a surrogacy 'contract' that isn't currently enforceable in U.K. law?

Any thoughts on what 'expenses' can be charged and what can and can't be included and associated with a surrogacy pregnancy?

Have you any clue on how many billions of dollars the surrogacy industry will be worth by 2025?

Yes because the average person knows all that info....

To add, it’s all still irrelevant to my point of a close family member/friend offering the help.....

Where no money is exchanged

who are you to say no?!?!

I'm no one, it doesn't matter what I think or say or do. It is already 'underground'. People do it via Facebook and it can be done completely unregulated and without anyone but those involved knowing. If it's a heterosexual couples they can pass off a baby without any of their family knowing and you get a new birth certificate with the parental order, if you even bother to get one. Some don't.

Not a word of what any of us say here matters. All that matters in the law.

But this is a discussion forum. For parents. So I'll say whatever I like and do whatever I can to prevent children from becoming commodities in the U.K.

You can do exactly the same but for the opposite cause and you can think and say and do whatever you like. You can have a baby and give it to someone if you'd like to, just don't take any money for it beyond 'expenses' as that would be human trafficking and that's illegal.

@OhHolyJesus

who are you to say no?!?!

I'm no one, it doesn't matter what I think or say or do. It is already 'underground'. People do it via Facebook and it can be done completely unregulated and without anyone but those involved knowing. If it's a heterosexual couples they can pass off a baby without any of their family knowing and you get a new birth certificate with the parental order, if you even bother to get one. Some don't.

Not a word of what any of us say here matters. All that matters in the law.

But this is a discussion forum. For parents. So I'll say whatever I like and do whatever I can to prevent children from becoming commodities in the U.K.

You can do exactly the same but for the opposite cause and you can think and say and do whatever you like. You can have a baby and give it to someone if you'd like to, just don't take any money for it beyond 'expenses' as that would be human trafficking and that's illegal.

Go ahead and lobby for it, but I suspect it won’t become illegal.

Where no money is exchanged

So the surrogate mother in the family is out of pocket too? All her expenses relating to the pregnancy she covers as well as gives womb rental free of charge?

Go ahead and lobby for it, but I suspect it won’t become illegal.

I never said anything about it being illegal here in the U.K., I said other counties have made it illegal and you failed to answer my question as to why you might think that is.

I can't imagine it would be made illegal in the U.K., there's too much money to be made, it can be a new career choice for some women (as Sen. Cumo suggested in the passing for the NYC law) and we have strong lobbyists influencing the APPG and the Law Commission.

It will take more than a few women protesting it, it will probably take a big scandal like Baby Gammy to have a full ban even considered.

@OhHolyJesus

Where no money is exchanged

So the surrogate mother in the family is out of pocket too? All her expenses relating to the pregnancy she covers as well as gives womb rental free of charge?

Ehhhh? What you on about now? What you making up scenarios for, for possible fictional situations?

If a woman wants to be a surrogate for her friend, the likely hood (in this made up scenario ) I’d the friends would drive the pregnant woman to antenatal appointments etc... not sure what other huge expenses you foresee tbh.

As this is done out of caring the free rent comment is moot

It's sick and awful.

@TableFlowerss

Either there are costs that are uniquely related to pregnancy or there are not.

The supposedly altruistic model applied in the U.K. includes 'expenses' being paid for by commissioning parents. This includes everything from vitamins and take always to a cleaner and gardener. It's not just maternity clothes, petrol and parking for doctor or hospital appointments. How on earth would you to get a national al average of about £15-20k otherwise?

I don't know about you but as a result of being pregnant I didn't have a gardener. If the commissioning parents agree to lay this when they outline the 'expenses' at the beginning then it is not an 'expense' but more 'compensation', which is the other word used to disguise the payment. It's just too distasteful to call it that in what everyone pretends to be a non-commercial model.

The scenario you are referring to is more made up than you think. A woman doing it for her sister could be coerced, she could also be compensated by a rich cousin/sister/aunt and paid with holidays and jewellery for all you know. There can be jealousy that creates permanent damage in a family, the not-pregnant family member can want the attention and there can be problems in dictating what the surrogate mother does because she is 'owned'. I've seen one story where she was told by her brother in law not to kiss her boyfriend.

nordicmodelnow.org/2020/01/29/i-was-an-altruistic-surrogate-and-am-now-against-all-surrogacy/

Of course it's rare to hear these stories as, like this woman, I imagine they don't want to talk about it and the family may be honest with the child about where they came from but wouldn't want to go into the nitty gritty detail and present anything negative.

There are happy situations in families with altruistic surrogacy, I don't deny they happen but I don't pretend the opposite is also true for some.

In addition to the link above, I would recommend Renate Klein's book, Surrogacy: A Human Rights Violation, as this cover a surrogacy pregnancy between sisters in some detail.

[quote OhHolyJesus]@TableFlowerss

Either there are costs that are uniquely related to pregnancy or there are not.

The supposedly altruistic model applied in the U.K. includes 'expenses' being paid for by commissioning parents. This includes everything from vitamins and take always to a cleaner and gardener. It's not just maternity clothes, petrol and parking for doctor or hospital appointments. How on earth would you to get a national al average of about £15-20k otherwise?

I don't know about you but as a result of being pregnant I didn't have a gardener. If the commissioning parents agree to lay this when they outline the 'expenses' at the beginning then it is not an 'expense' but more 'compensation', which is the other word used to disguise the payment. It's just too distasteful to call it that in what everyone pretends to be a non-commercial model.

The scenario you are referring to is more made up than you think. A woman doing it for her sister could be coerced, she could also be compensated by a rich cousin/sister/aunt and paid with holidays and jewellery for all you know. There can be jealousy that creates permanent damage in a family, the not-pregnant family member can want the attention and there can be problems in dictating what the surrogate mother does because she is 'owned'. I've seen one story where she was told by her brother in law not to kiss her boyfriend.

nordicmodelnow.org/2020/01/29/i-was-an-altruistic-surrogate-and-am-now-against-all-surrogacy/

Of course it's rare to hear these stories as, like this woman, I imagine they don't want to talk about it and the family may be honest with the child about where they came from but wouldn't want to go into the nitty gritty detail and present anything negative.

There are happy situations in families with altruistic surrogacy, I don't deny they happen but I don't pretend the opposite is also true for some.

In addition to the link above, I would recommend Renate Klein's book, Surrogacy: A Human Rights Violation, as this cover a surrogacy pregnancy between sisters in some detail.
[/quote]
I don’t buy in to a blanket ban because surrogacy doesn’t work out for some people.

A blanket ban on all surrogacy in Britain will take away and last hope an infertile couple has. That’s no ones right to decide to take the right away from everyone. It’s your right to decide to say no, but to remove the choice completely is terrible.

It’s also like saying we’ll have to ban alcohol because some people become dependent.

The comparison to human trafficking is absurd. Those women are used purely for financial gain against their wishes. They can make money for the traffickers. There is nothing altruistic about that. It’s abhorrent.

That’s no ones right to decide to take the right away from everyone. It’s your right to decide to say no, but to remove the choice completely is terrible.

Please can you direct me to the law in the U.K. that states that everyone has a right to a family and that having a family is a human right. Thanks.

Sorry, mumsnet is not telling me when new posts have been made on a thread which is annoying!

Re. your post at 9.30ish last night Tables. Yes you were lucky. I'm one of the ones who had fertility problems, who went through the absolute fucking hell of years and years of repeat miscarriages and what it did to me. It was awful, I can't describe it.

I'm not surprised that some people in that pain will reach out to do anything to grab a baby BUT that doesn't mean they should be allowed to do so. Pain does not mean you are entitled to something.

No one should ever be removing a tiny newborn from their birth mum, unless it's the most dire of circumstances where the mum 100% cannot care for that child.