Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

MOJ Prison Policy JR TODAY

999 replies

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 02/03/2021 10:10

Just seen on Twitter.

Will post links

OP posts:
Thread gallery
13
Redshoeblueshoe · 04/03/2021 14:30

I expect Dr Barrett also believes that if any of the women are raped that they enjoyed it, or were asking for it.

Siablue · 04/03/2021 14:40

@Signalbox

Worse, Dr James Barrett of the Gender Identity Clinic stated in his evidence that the only women in prison who would object to Jones are THE SORT OF WOMEN WHO ENJOY CONFLICT

That's so shocking. Do you know if the judges in this case can just ignore the ruling in Jones if they feel like it was wrong?

The most sickening aspect of it was it was in the context of rape. I quite genuinely do not know a single woman alive who would be happy to be locked up with a convicted rapist.
TheRabbitOfCaerbannog · 04/03/2021 14:52

I quite genuinely do not know a single woman alive who would be happy to be locked up with a convicted rapist.

And yet the MOJ would do that to female prisoners, some of the most vulnerable women in society. Many of whom have already been sexually abused.

DayBath · 04/03/2021 15:03

Sorry to be a pain but can someone please give me a summary of what this is about and what the outcome is?

This thread is huge and rather difficult to wade through, its just all a bit confusing.

Probably not helped by toddler headbutting me and nearly breaking my nose today, headaches and 800 reply threads don't work well together!

DayBath · 04/03/2021 15:04

To add, i obviously understand the debate about transwomen in womens prisons, im more confused by what the current event is, is it some sort of law drafting or legal case you are all commenting on?

NecessaryScene1 · 04/03/2021 15:07

You can see the background here

Intro:

A female prisoner has been granted a Judicial Review of transgender prisoner policy. She is bringing an indirect discrimination claim on the grounds of sex. Her legal team will argue that two transgender policies do not adequately consider the detrimental impact on female prisoners and should be quashed.

The two prison policies to be covered by the transgender prisoner judicial review are:

* The care and management of transgender prisoners
* The special unit for high-risk transgender prisoners located at Downview women’s prison

RoyalCorgi · 04/03/2021 15:07

DayBath: some time ago a trans woman called Karen White, previously known as David Thompson, was put in a women's prison. White was later convicted of rape (committed before the prison sentence). While in the women's prison White sexually assaulted at least one female prisoner.

One of those female prisoners, supported by Fair Play for Women, has asked for a judicial review into the Ministry of Justice's decision to house trans women (biological men) in women's prisons. This is what this court case is about.

You can see a picture of White here:

www.theguardian.com/society/2018/oct/11/karen-white-how-manipulative-and-controlling-offender-attacked-again-transgender-prison

Siablue · 04/03/2021 15:12

@DayBath

To add, i obviously understand the debate about transwomen in womens prisons, im more confused by what the current event is, is it some sort of law drafting or legal case you are all commenting on?
A woman who was raped in prison is bring a case to judicial review ( this is where judges review the legality of something) about transwomen in women’s prisons.

She is arguing that women have the right to single sex prisons.

The MoJ are a total mess. Men’s prisons are single sex and transmen are housed in the female estate (ie according to the sex not their gender). This is not the case for transwomen who are a disproportionate % of sex offenders in the prison system.

Have a look at fair play for women and keeps prisons single sex on Twitter for more information.

DayBath · 04/03/2021 15:14

Thank you so much @RoyalCorgi and @NecessaryScene1 , I have some reading up to do! I felt a bit silly asking but if you're late to a thread it can be difficult to work it all out so I appreciate the summaries. Smile

DayBath · 04/03/2021 15:14

Thank you @Siablue, I will take a look Smile

Siablue · 04/03/2021 15:18

Sorry cross post with ladies who are much more knowledgeable than me.

R0wantrees · 04/03/2021 15:19

In 2018 John Bercow (former Speaker of House of Commons) refused MPs permission to ask questions about the housing of male sexual offenders in the female prison estate.

The Spectator by James Kirkup
'If MPs can’t debate a rapist in a woman’s jail, politics has failed'
14 September 2018
(extract)
"Last week, it was confirmed that the State put a rapist and paedophile in a women’s prison. That rapist, who uses the name Karen White, then sexually assaulted four women in that prison.

This is, of course, an outrage, a failure of public administration of the first order. Many people are angry, among them members of the Government that oversaw this failure. Many people have questions about how that failure came about. How did the Prison Service come to decide that Karen White, a person with a male body and a history of violent sexual crimes, should be put in New Hall prison? (New Hall, incidentally, also has a 'mother and baby unit.' The State did not just put a rapist in a women’s jail, they put a convicted paedophile in prison with children).

Was this just a catastrophic failure of judgement? Was it the result of flawed policy on the handling of transgender inmates? Did a climate of unthinking acquiescence to the demands of a highly effective transgender rights lobby contribute to this horrible mistake?

These are all legitimate questions, questions that should be debated and answered by the ministers responsible. These are the questions that Parliament exists to debate: questions about the conduct of public policy. (continues)

David Davies, Tory MP for Monmouth, thus tabled an Urgent Question, a parliamentary request for the House to summon a minister to discuss the issues raised by the Karen White case, and of other transgender sex offenders in the prison estate. (Yes, there are others. There is at least one male-born rapist in a women’s prison today.)

The decision to grant a UQ and summon a minister rests with the Speaker, John Bercow. He grants a lot of UQs. That annoys ministers but pleases backbenchers. It’s probably the best aspect of his tenure as Speaker. I know he annoys a lot of people, but he’s been a good servant of the Commons, giving the legislature greater bite on the executive.

Given that, I’d have bet on him accepting a UQ on Karen White and transgender inmates. He didn’t. Mr Davies says the Speaker rejected his request. There are whispers that at least one other MP was also rebuffed.

To recap: the State put a rapist in a jail full of vulnerable women. That rapist then sexually assaulted four of those women. MPs wanted to know how that happened, and to question the ministers responsible for those events. The Speaker of the House of Commons said they could not do so.

The story of transgender policy in Britain today is a story of political failure, where many people fail to do their job and speak openly about matters of clear public interest. Writing about it this year, I’ve grown accustomed to that failure, though no less angry about it.

But even by the dismal standards of the trans debate, where supposedly responsible figures routinely shirk their duties to appease a small, aggressive group of activists and lobbyists, John Bercow’s decision strikes me as repulsive, a disgusting abdication of responsibility that brings shame on its author and his office. (continues)

No doubt Mr Bercow believes that he can do his job as objective, neutral Speaker while holding that role at Kaleidoscope Trust without any conflict or embarrassment. I am not saying he can't. But I wonder if the women attacked by the rapist Karen White in HMP New Hall will think the man who chairs the assembly speaks for them."
www.spectator.co.uk/article/if-mps-can-t-debate-a-rapist-in-a-woman-s-jail-politics-has-failed

thread www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3365319-new-kirkup-article-about-bercow-s-refusal-to-let-mps-discuss-karen-white

Wondermule · 04/03/2021 15:20

Has anyone any idea when we can expect a result? Or is it how long is a piece of string?

DayBath · 04/03/2021 15:24

Very interesting @R0wantrees. I had the impression that Bercow was a pretty fair speaker but now I'm shocked.

So am I right in thinking that there is a judicial review today and there will be a decision made soon?

NecessaryScene1 · 04/03/2021 15:30

One of those female prisoners

Oh, I didn't know that it was actually one of the direct victims. Sad

So am I right in thinking that there is a judicial review today and there will be a decision made soon?

It was held Tuesday and Wednesday. It will probably be something like 2-3 months for a decision.

NecessaryScene1 · 04/03/2021 15:31

(The judges have asked for more evidence and data to be provided, so it's not fully complete, but the main hearings are complete).

RaidersoftheLostAardvark · 04/03/2021 15:34

Does anyone know what happens if the court requests information & the information cannot be gathered? I'm wondering how the MoJ will work out how many trans people are in what prisons by the end of next week when they currently claim to have no idea. Do they get penalised?

R0wantrees · 04/03/2021 15:35

Very interesting. I had the impression that Bercow was a pretty fair speaker but now I'm shocked.

Thu 05-Jul-18 (the day after the Government's consultation on self-id opened) OP junebedford82 wrote,

Just saw this on P*k News
www.pinknews.co.uk/2018/07/04/speaker-john-bercow-tells-pinknews-reception-2/

Bercow
"There’s still a huge challenge in terms of the trans community. We need to up our level of standing up for the rights of trans people. We shouldn’t allow people to peddle anti-trans messages under the guise of trying to protect other people’s rights. We shouldn’t let people muddy the waters in that way. It’s just not people screaming abuse in the streets – it’s sometimes people who have access to the media and can write articulately, and are using their position to push messages which I think result in very considerable and dangerous displays of hostility to trans people. Up with that we must not put, as Churchill might have said.”

What on earth is he doing? How can a supposedly-independent speaker intervene on something in the middle of the government consultation?"

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3298016-John-Bercows-rant-about-Gender-Critical-women

A number of women sent postcards to Bercow with Churchill quotes,
I thought this apposite:

"So we must beware of a tyranny of opinion which tries to make only one side of a question the one which may be heard. Everyone is in favour of free speech. Hardly a day passes without its being extolled, but some people’s idea of it is that they are free to say what they like, but if anyone says anything back, that is an outrage."

relevant thread www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3396169-John-Bercow-sex-pest-ridicules-GC-Women-friend-of-Pink-News-Edward-Lord-who-refused-UQ-about-prison-policy-following-Karen-White-Case-Unconnected

Wondermule · 04/03/2021 15:36

I notice Mermaids took to Twitter to complain about the unfairness of the amendment to the maternity bill, but haven’t mentioned the prisons case 🤷🏼‍♀️ Anything to distract from Karen White, eh?

Datun · 04/03/2021 15:46

@RaidersoftheLostAardvark

Does anyone know what happens if the court requests information & the information cannot be gathered? I'm wondering how the MoJ will work out how many trans people are in what prisons by the end of next week when they currently claim to have no idea. Do they get penalised?
Yes it's a poser. I want to how they will determine those figures. Because, as everyone says, it's not possible.

I hope they have to show their workings out.

SunsetBeetch · 04/03/2021 15:46

Bercow is pals with Edward Lord, isn't he?

R0wantrees · 04/03/2021 15:53

[quote RoyalCorgi]DayBath: some time ago a trans woman called Karen White, previously known as David Thompson, was put in a women's prison. White was later convicted of rape (committed before the prison sentence). While in the women's prison White sexually assaulted at least one female prisoner.

One of those female prisoners, supported by Fair Play for Women, has asked for a judicial review into the Ministry of Justice's decision to house trans women (biological men) in women's prisons. This is what this court case is about.

You can see a picture of White here:

www.theguardian.com/society/2018/oct/11/karen-white-how-manipulative-and-controlling-offender-attacked-again-transgender-prison[/quote]
The alleged sexual assault is not by White but another male sexual offender held in the female prison estate. White was placed in women's prison despite not having a GRC.

Telegraph
'Female prisoners at greater risk of sexual assault by transgender inmates, High Court hears
MoJ policy challenged by prisoner who claims she was sexually assaulted by a trans woman behind bars'

By Gabriella Swerling,
2 March 2021
(extract)
The Ministry of Justice's policy of placing trans women in women's prisons is being challenged by a prisoner who claims she was sexually assaulted behind bars.

FDJ, who cannot be identified, claims that in 2017 she was sexually assaulted in prison by a trans woman, known as J, who had convictions for "serious sexual offences against women". J was being housed in the general population of a women's prison.

FDJ’s lawyers claim that J has a gender recognition certificate (GRC), which is not admitted by the MoJ. As a result, they are arguing that the Government's policy of allocating trans inmates to prisons based on their declared gender identity unlawfully discriminates against women." (continues)

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20210302193130/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/03/02/female-prisoners-greater-risk-sexual-assault-transgender-inmates/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20210302193130/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/03/02/female-prisoners-greater-risk-sexual-assault-transgender-inmates/

KeepPrisonsSingleSex · 04/03/2021 15:55

Correct: the prisoner J cannot be KW because KW had no GRC and the prisoner J does.

Can I please stress that the court imposed confidentiality for all prisoners involved including J and there are reporting restrictions in place on this.

Any attempts to identify J may result in this thread being deleted.

DayBath · 04/03/2021 15:56

I love that women sent Bercow Churchill quotes to put him straight, what a bitter pill that must have been for him (if he bothered to read them of course).