Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

MOJ Prison Policy JR TODAY

999 replies

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 02/03/2021 10:10

Just seen on Twitter.

Will post links

OP posts:
Thread gallery
13
R0wantrees · 04/03/2021 16:17

Worse, Dr James Barrett of the Gender Identity Clinic stated in his evidence that the only women in prison who would object to Jones are THE SORT OF WOMEN WHO ENJOY CONFLICT

Dr James Barrett is a Quaker
Article from ;The Friend'
‘It is soul-crushing and miserable for anyone to live pretending to be something they are not.’
11 Apr 2019

(extract)
"James Barrett runs Britain’s largest and oldest gender identity clinic. In the first of a Friend series on gender identity issues, he gives his reflections on thirty years of work. (continues)

Gender’, in fact, firms up a bit on closer examination and a bit of linguistic dissection. There is, for example, ‘gender’ used to describe the way anyone has a sense of themselves. Most people feel male or feel female (a few people feel neither or a bit of both). For most people that sense of themselves fits their body and the label that came on their birth certificate. For a few people, it does not. How anyone feels can’t be argued with; it’s their reality.

Then there is a social gender role. This is the way we are perceived by society and as a consequence are expected to behave, to dress, to work (this to a pleasingly diminishing extent) and even, perhaps, to think. It predicts how others expect us to behave, too. Others might expect us to be collaborative, communicative and nurturing if we are perceived as female, competitive, overbearing and maybe even violent if we are perceived as male.

It is soul-crushing and miserable for anyone to live their lives pretending to be something they are not, no matter how good the pretence they put up. As a society we don’t ask people to conceal their religious or political views; as Quakers we always took the opposite stance. Even if ethnicity could be concealed, as a society we wouldn’t suggest it and as Quakers we would be at the forefront of opposition to such a thing. History eloquently records the blighted lives of gay and lesbian people who tried to live as if they were straight, which is why it’s not required any more, and as Quakers we led the way in ending that requirement. It is equally soul-crushing to live in an inauthentic social gender role. Just as life-enhancing to, at last, be able to be one’s true self.

I think that when we are in Meeting for Worship or otherwise get closer to God, the spirit, the light or however we choose to describe it, we do so with our minds, or possibly our souls, but decidedly don’t do so with our bodies. It is not our spleens, lungs, gastrointestinal or reproductive tracts that matter. We are Quakers, we are deeply rooted in equality, so I don’t think it matters what gender we are, in either a personal identity sense or a social role sense." (continues)

It has been said that ‘self-identification opens the doors to individuals who would abuse the legal right to create new identities. This could create risks for the safety of children, women and other vulnerable groups’. Generally speaking, I’ve noticed, this amounts to a fear that men will use this means to inveigle their way into places that would otherwise not admit them and, once inside, behave reprehensibly.

That door, surely, has already been opened. As a society we let men teach primary school children, become midwives, work in nurseries, become nurses and gynaecologists. Any of those men might also behave in just such a way but nonetheless they continue. I suppose we do so because we accept that while this is a possibility it’s just not reasonable to exclude all men because some might do so. It just wouldn’t be fair or proportionate.

As Quakers I think we are, or certainly should be, all about open doors, not closed ones. About assuming sincerity and good intentions on the part of those who walk through those open doors, seeking to discern that of God in them, rather than being constantly concerned about the possibility of the evil that is, in truth, present in all of us bursting forth from every new person who walks through our doors. Let our communication and interaction be with the minds, the personalities, the souls of the visitors who come through that door, accepting their sense of themselves as being as valid as our sense of ourselves. To do otherwise is to interact instead solely with their birth certificate or their genitals, wilfully ignoring exactly what it is that makes them unique, a child of God, just as we all are."
thefriend.org/article/it-is-soul-crushing-and-miserable-for-anyone-to-live-pretending-to-be-somet

PotholeParadies · 04/03/2021 17:31

I'd just like to thank everyone for their posts. I've been lurking without posting because I didn't have anything to contribute. It's been a sobering read.

SorryAuntLydia · 04/03/2021 17:35

@PotholeParadies

I'd just like to thank everyone for their posts. I've been lurking without posting because I didn't have anything to contribute. It's been a sobering read.
Same. IANAL so it's really helpful to have it all explained.
MichelleofzeResistance · 04/03/2021 17:46

About assuming sincerity and good intentions on the part of those who walk through those open doors, seeking to discern that of God in them, rather than being constantly concerned about the possibility of the evil that is, in truth, present in all of us bursting forth from every new person who walks through our doors.

Good grief, what a lot of truly silly, happy clappy, naiive waffle.

I particularly like the bit where he compared a male nursery worker (trained, dbs checked, experienced, safeguarding trained) with... well let's say the person for example who photographed themselves in the women's toilet with a sword for the punishing of any woman who felt threatened by their presence.

No, they're really not one and the same.

And the whole point is that women should not in a civilised society be left with nothing more than hope that the male person who has just walked into an enclosed space where they are vulnerable is sincere and of good intentions, and decides to play nice .

Its in that male person's gift. All the female person has is hope. And that's it.

That is not fucking equality unless you've got your crystals grubby, your star sign is in Taurus, and you've knitted way too much muesli. Nor is safeguarding the equivalent of a toddler friends group.

MichelleofzeResistance · 04/03/2021 17:48

Somebody should also point out to Mr Barrett that it's fairly soul destroying to be sexually assaulted too.

Leafstamp · 04/03/2021 18:18

@RaidersoftheLostAardvark

Does anyone know what happens if the court requests information & the information cannot be gathered? I'm wondering how the MoJ will work out how many trans people are in what prisons by the end of next week when they currently claim to have no idea. Do they get penalised?
I recall reading a similar question on this board yesterday but think it might have been part of the #dontsubmittoStonewall campaign.

The discussion there said someone had submitted a FoI request for the info but the organisation had said "we don't have the information" and therefore no information was required to be produced under the FoIA.

However, I think it was agreed that they can't use the "we don't have the information" if the Court has asked for it, and therefore would have to go away and find the info!

As a PP says- the MoJ better bloody show their workings!

Thenagainmaybetheydont · 04/03/2021 18:36

I know this is a bit off topic but I think DBS checks have been discussed a bit further up the thread. Does anyone know what the DBS actually do? Do they run any checks on the identity documents?

I have had a look at the website what seems to happen is the person wishing to be checked shows ID to the employer (for example). And 5 years of address history. And the employer has to check the ID documents. And then off the request goes to the DBS.

The individual has to put previous names on the form.

But what if they don't? Do the DBS check with the passport office, for example, if the person has changed their name?

I no longer have faith that any Government department has any common sense.....

NecessaryScene1 · 04/03/2021 18:43

This has been discussed before, and as far as we can tell, they trust the person to reveal any previous names. (Privately in separate correspondance to the DBS people, if they don't want to "deadname" themselves to the employer).

Seems secure. Confused

DayBath · 04/03/2021 20:52

@NecessaryScene1

This has been discussed before, and as far as we can tell, they trust the person to reveal any previous names. (Privately in separate correspondance to the DBS people, if they don't want to "deadname" themselves to the employer).

Seems secure. Confused

Oh dear Lord this is terrifying if true. I've been responsible for checking ID and forms for checks in the past and we always had total faith in the system, I'm just shaking my head thinking of how sensitive those roles were and how much responsibility we gave people around vulnerable children and adults, and all that time it was done on trust alone that people declared their past names.

I just can't get over that. What the hell is this government playing at?Angry

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 04/03/2021 20:57

I think if they can’t provide the data to the court they will have to state why and the court will draw what inference it chooses. Depending on the quality of the data the judges may form a view on how effectively the MOJ has conducted any balancing exercise between the rights of prisoners and the potential risk. Poor data will not help the MOJ show it has made a reasoned assessment.

OP posts:
NiceGerbil · 04/03/2021 21:16

As far as I can tell the BBC has still not reported on this at all?!

teawamutu · 04/03/2021 21:22

@NiceGerbil

As far as I can tell the BBC has still not reported on this at all?!
Course not.

Think it was on the AIBU thread, but my guess was they'll either publish fuck all, or Ben Hunte being shocked and sad at the nasty transphobic hate groups trying to erase trans rights etc etc etc.

NiceGerbil · 04/03/2021 21:25

This story surely has loads of public interest and is also the sort of thing the media thrives on

Big government ministry being taken to court by ordinary person
They're saying they don't have stats etc
And sadly anything involving sex offences against women seems to get journalists interested

But zero

I mean I knew they were awful but I still thought they'd be a vague short piece buried somewhere on there

teawamutu · 04/03/2021 21:28

@NiceGerbil

This story surely has loads of public interest and is also the sort of thing the media thrives on

Big government ministry being taken to court by ordinary person
They're saying they don't have stats etc
And sadly anything involving sex offences against women seems to get journalists interested

But zero

I mean I knew they were awful but I still thought they'd be a vague short piece buried somewhere on there

What the public are interested in, and what the Guardian and BBC think they ought to be interested in, are not always the same things are they? Gotta educate the hoi polloi and all that.
DayBath · 04/03/2021 21:53

But...but...Meghan....but Harry...and Oprah...can't possibly cover anything more important than that or their brains would explode. The BBC is like a celeb trash mag now, teetering very precariously just one rung above the Daily Star.

MaudTheInvincible · 04/03/2021 22:08

I agree DayBath. Why have they become so dumbed down though? I don't understand why they seem to be actively pursuing a path of puerile bollocks when they had such a reputation for excellence.

DayBath · 04/03/2021 22:23

No idea Maud. It's not just the subject choices it's the quality of the journalism too, it's worthless now but I'm still searching for a better news source. The Guardian is incredibly alarmist and over the top, the Independent employs..let's just say 'questionable' people...the best I've found is the FT but it's incredibly dry.

NiceGerbil · 04/03/2021 22:32

It's not subject choices it's obvious massive bias.

BBC is supposed to be neutral.

Belleende · 05/03/2021 06:43

They have all drank the SW coolaid. Suzanne Moore was hounded out of the Guardian simply for saying women have a right to organise. Stonewall know what they are doing. They captured media organisations first.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suzanne_Moore

merrymouse · 05/03/2021 07:12

Let our communication and interaction be with the minds, the personalities, the souls of the visitors who come through that door, accepting their sense of themselves as being as valid as our sense of ourselves.

This is the exact opposite of what he proposes, which is that certain behaviours are appropriate for men and certain behaviours are appropriate for women, and that non conformity may require surgery.

Outbutnotoutout · 05/03/2021 09:36

Let's bump this back up to the top where is should be.

What's happens now?
In court, are they sitting again today or later in the week?

RozWatching · 05/03/2021 09:59

Just saw this:

mobile.twitter.com/Baroness_Nichol/status/1367596739243495434

Emma Harriet Nicholson
@ Baroness_Nichol
We in the Lords are now discussing this very seriously indeed

SunsetBeetch · 05/03/2021 10:03

@RozWatching

Just saw this:

mobile.twitter.com/Baroness_Nichol/status/1367596739243495434

Emma Harriet Nicholson
@ Baroness_Nichol
We in the Lords are now discussing this very seriously indeed

Oh, great.
KeepPrisonsSingleSex · 05/03/2021 10:15

@Outbutnotoutout

Let's bump this back up to the top where is should be.

What's happens now?
In court, are they sitting again today or later in the week?

Hearing ended on Wednesday and counsel have been instructed to provide written information (that includes full set of data on trans prisoners, with separate breakdown for those with GRC, and clear statement of the policy on housing TM in the male estate) by 12the March.

Judgement will be handed down in due course - given the timelines for previous JRs, I wouldn't expect this for at least a couple of months.