MOMA Bill back in the Commons today, Monday 1st March 5.15pm

[ConservativesForWomen]

New thread as previous one almost full.

List of speakers here, expected start time 5.15pm:

commonsbusiness.parliament.uk/document/45568/html

I am a bit confused. I didn't think the Conservative party had come out TWAW and TMAM, but that's what Penny just said - is this the party line or her views?

Penny was one of the earliest women to hold the women and equalities brief when it was decided to reform the GRA. There are a few hardcore TRA's in the Tories, her and Crispin Blunt are two of them.

When Penny Mordaunt introduced the amendments she said "as discussed previously, the word woman ... would have run into legal difficulties". I wonder what these "legal difficulties" would have been beyond a great deal of wailing?

@2021Vision

I am a bit confused. I didn't think the Conservative party had come out TWAW and TMAM, but that's what Penny just said - is this the party line or her views?

What I also find a bit worrying is that I get the impression that if the Freddie McConnell case had gone the other way then we would be left with 'person'. Following the HoL debate I thought we had edged forward but it appears we havent, rather begrudgingly they have passed. Glad it's passed but dissapointed that we have had to have a battle to get the word changed for something that is only about women.

I'm not sure how it works with whips and party lines etc but some Conservatives are very much like Penny and Crispin etc but there are some Conservatives (probably quite a few) that are holding quite a line of defence.

The trouble is that it seems like once an MP mentions anything remotely supportive of women's rights, it unleashes the full wrath of the activists and their sm and emails get swamped and it might might hamper their other work.

My MP seems reasonably supportive although the other day he replied to an email from me saying 'I recognise your deeply held beliefs' which I wasn't quite sure whether to take as being a bit sarky or not.

It is a crashing insult to women that even a maternity bill has to centre trans rights.

Makes it crystal clear doesn't it?

No room for as well as. No room for alongside or even live and let live. This is about obliteration and replacement.

@ChazsBrilliantAttitude

It is a crashing insult to women that even a maternity bill has to centre trans rights. Trans women have nothing to do with maternity rights.

I don't think these MPs realise how deranged it makes them look.

It's good to know which ones are pushing the ideology. I think Crispin is an irrelevance but for some unfathomable reason Mordaunt has quite a following in Con circles.

When Penny Mordaunt introduced the amendments she said "as discussed previously, the word woman ... would have run into legal difficulties". I wonder what these "legal difficulties" would have been beyond a great deal of wailing?

It could have been subject to a legal challenge I suppose by those who can become pregnant and don't identify as women therefore holding up further a time sensitive bill.

I think mother is an okay compromise although I'd prefer honesty about women just being women as we have been since the dawn of time. But I can see why they went with mother because ironically Freddy McConnell's case meant that word is legally secure for anyone who is pregnant and giving birth so no route to challenge that word.

Very glad that Freddy McConnell's case went through when it did. Otherwise I could imagine this being even more of a dog's dinner than it has been.

Just goes to show that women who think that 'holding their noses' and voting Conservative gets them away from the ideological madness of Labour/Lib Dems/Greens are not on safe ground.

The Tories are full on captured if Mordaunt can say that on behalf of the Government.

Good news that it passed, but not really surprising, as the Minister, Lord True had already confirmed in the HoL that the wording change was acceptable to the government, but.... I'm just dispirited that it takes so much fight, effort and yes, "being nice", to be heard, and still men are centred. By other women! I won't say what I think of CB as it would be (correctly) deleted. For all our reems of thoughtful, legal, factual evidence, all it takes is 1 person to say "nah... TWAW" and we're back to square one. . Sorry - raging (women-only) PMT.

I would not be surprised to find that the news of the Bill will reach more mainstream outlets than the HoL debate, but more column inches dedicated to the people not covered by it than women....

They're not full on captured. My MP is con and this is the bill that has drawn them out into the open. I'd had several years of hmm and fence sitting; this bill was the one they wrote back to me and said yes, they were and I quote 'deeply concerned' about what was happening to vulnerable women with the conflation of sex and gender.

The TRA rights = removal of women's sex based rights voices are sounding less and less logical or justifiable; it was extremely evident in the HoL debate. I think increasingly it's being seen as time this was better balanced and that the line between transphobia and gynephobia has to be kept.

transmen are men and transwomen are women.

great care has been taken to get that message across.

I feel sure that lots of MPs not that they are brave enough to challenge were inwardly rolling their eyes at this irrelevant diversion.

Eleanor Scott on Mordaunt's MN chat (from 2019):

"Finally, at a few minutes before 6pm, as Mordaunt herself was filing though the division lobbies of the House of Commons voting on Brexit amendments, ‘her’ answers were posted on the webchat board. It took Mumsnetters (a diligent and intelligent lot, whom politicians underestimate at their peril) a short while to trawl through them - and then with ice-cold restraint they kind of handed Penny Mordaunt her arse on a plate. They had hoped for the words of someone who was at least on top of her brief and who recognised the need to protect the sex-based rights of women and girls, but instead they got (and I say this with a reviewer’s hat on) a disjointed medley of politico-speak and ineffective deflection. She had had ample time to come up with answers of real substance, but interestingly she didn’t even seem to try. In fact her answers can be grouped into a number of overlapping categories: (1) Deliberately misunderstood the question; (2) Didn’t understand the question or the issue, and contradicted herself; (3) Resented being asked the question; and (4) Couldn’t be bothered to answer the question properly. As one poster put it, ‘80% of these answers weren’t actually answers were they?’ Another called the performance ‘clueless’. Ouch.

For example, she wittingly or unwittingly managed to ‘other’ women who have had hysterectomies or who have fertility issues by using them to make a point that didn’t even answer the question that had been asked of her. Another poster who was making a valid point about not wanting her child being taught a particular ideology of gender in school (as opposed to actual, proper science-based sex education) was advised to go see her MP. The issue of rapist men self-identifying as women and accessing women’s prisons was batted off to the Ministry of Justice, after she’d made clear that the women’s prison estate wasn’t at the top of the list of her priorities: ‘So the rights and feelings of actual women come second. Noted’ wrote one contributor, coolly."

eleanorscottarchaeology.com/els-blog/2019/3/14/the-day-that-mumsnet-took-down-penny-mordaunt-mp

transmen are men and transwomen are women.

I note that she deliberately excluded non-binary people..

transmen are men and transwomen are women.

And Britain had no right to veto Turkey’s membership of the EU before the referendum.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/22/david-cameron-defence-minister-penny-mordaunt-lying-turkey-joining-eu

You can tell her background is in PR. She is all about the message, (in this case women must accept sexist stereotypes and their rights are unimportant) but not really one to bother with the consequences.

She is no Joanna Cherry.

Lib Dems views are all a bit Nichten Lichten (He said he didn't like it, but he'll have to go along with it.)

@Endofthelinefinally

"All Women" Eye roll.

I thought that was a slip actually.

@merrymouse

transmen are men and transwomen are women.

And Britain had no right to veto Turkey’s membership of the EU before the referendum.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/22/david-cameron-defence-minister-penny-mordaunt-lying-turkey-joining-eu

You can tell her background is in PR. She is all about the message, (in this case women must accept sexist stereotypes and their rights are unimportant) but not really one to bother with the consequences.

She is no Joanna Cherry.

Penny's reasoning (or lack of it) is all emotive in my opinion. She's spoken before about her brother, who is gay. It's why she brought up the stuff about gay rights from decades ago.

I can understand people holding emotionally driven opinions and it's probably the same for Crispin Blunt (with a hefty bit of misogyny thrown in) but that doesn't mean what they say makes any sense. Especially when they're trying to avoid biological reality in a bill that is all about the realities of female biology.

Was it PM who engaged in a dare to mention rude words in parliament? Also CB and PM are certainly very vocal.

Does anyone remember an issue with cash for questions in the past? Whatever happened to that?

To clarify that particular issue was not to do with the two people I mentioned.

It is just something I remembered from the past.

I’ve just watched Crispin Blunts speech. Is he on glue?

Or were his Overloads watching?

Mother will be used

So at the 6th May election
it may have to be Monster Raving Loony party on the ballot

Yes, you can see why then that they didn't want it to be 'woman'. Because Penny says TWAW therefore if a maternity bill says 'woman' she is effectively saying that TW can go on maternity leave (sorry if this is what everyone has been saying, I'm probably a bit slow).

So actually they are all sighing a big sigh of relief- they tried to sneak 'person' through and then held their breath, only to let out a sigh of relief when 'mother' was acceptable. I am quite happy with 'mother' as it stands but it's clear isn't it that 'woman' would have called a big stink that they don't want to face. When are the Conservative party going to sort this out.

The McConnell case seems to have confirmed the definition of 'mother', one that we all knew anyway. Perhaps we could have confirmation of the legal term of 'woman', which here on Mumsnet we also all know.

@TheLaughingGenome

Just goes to show that women who think that 'holding their noses' and voting Conservative gets them away from the ideological madness of Labour/Lib Dems/Greens are not on safe ground.

The Tories are full on captured if Mordaunt can say that on behalf of the Government.

No.

Penny is full on captured. The Tories mostly aren't.

Its going to be an endless problem because this circle never can be squared. It is not possible to maintain sex based rights for women and agree that transwomen can have 100% freedom of choice and access to women's spaces. Hence the ridiculousness of the government promising women they will maintain their single sex spaces and rights while at the same time telling the lobbies that single sex spaces are mixed sex for anyone who wishes.

It's an either or game when painted into this corner. And increasingly it's being realised that this means for some women complete exclusion and unacceptable imbalance of rights and fairness, unfair and disproportional impact on one sex to the benefit of the other, and its increasing division and problems not solving them. The issues with just forcing women to give up and step aside are apparent to the point now that a debate like the HoL can take place and it's well known this can't be the answer. Women's rights movements and thinking has also been forced into a very timely resurgence.

The next answer has to look at additional spaces, and/or where boundaries are placed. That one may go somewhere more positive.