An inclusive way to be gender critical?

[pensivepigeon]

My thoughts on gender and sex are thus:

Gender is a social construct. It is how society and individuals view the presentation of the sexes - in fashion, interests and work roles. Whereas sex is biological, we cannot change it even though we might surgically change our appearance and take artificial hormones which affect our bodily functions.

However because gender is a social construct and we are part of society we can define it. I define gender as

Female = adhering or not adhering to traditional stereotypes regarding names, fashion, interests and work roles.
Male= adhering or not adhering to traditional stereotypes regarding names, fashion, interests and work roles.

If everyone took this on board it would mean safe single sex spaces could be preserved, as people could present themselves however they want, wear what they want but use the single sex space appropriate for their sex without conflict. Uniforms would offer everyone both traditional female and male options which either sex could wear. Ditto with sports, competing takes place within the appropriate sex classes but competitors can wear either the traditional male or female competition uniforms. There would be no confusion and need to agonise over language when providing medical care.

Taking this stance stance means I have no problem when it comes to saying I am of female sex with a female gender.

So am I gender critical? Is this inclusive?

[Impatiens]

Opinions can't be incorrect 🤣 coming from one of the main contenders of the 'gender is nonsense' cohort

When an opinion is presented as fact that can be incorrect, yes. When someone expresses a personal opinion about something it's neither correct or incorrect, it's just an opinion. Is that complicated?

[Ereshkigalangcleg]

Then we are back to an assumption that males won't respect female spaces, if they happen to identify as transwomen.

This is what these arguments always amount to. Why can't our lack of consent be enough?

[RootyT00t]

That is a good question but there is no answr because at the minute, it isnt.

The reason there is an assumption that they wont is because if evidence showed they do (no idea how, as you have no idea who you have been sharing a toilet with) we wouldn't be having this debate and it wouldn't be an issue.

Whoever would use your toilet as a transwoman is already using it.

[334bu]

The reason there is an assumption that they wont is because if evidence showed they do (no idea how, as you have no idea who you have been sharing a toilet with) we wouldn't be having this debate and it wouldn't be an issue.

Whoever would use your toilet as a transwoman is already using it.

So just because some males are already abusing the system by using female toilets, we should just ignore it?

[RootyT00t]

@334bu

*The reason there is an assumption that they wont is because if evidence showed they do (no idea how, as you have no idea who you have been sharing a toilet with) we wouldn't be having this debate and it wouldn't be an issue.*

*Whoever would use your toilet as a transwoman is already using it.*

So just because some males are already abusing the system by using female toilets, we should just ignore it?

No.

My point is there is zero way to police it. Until then, we can all argue this all day but it won't change until it's legislated , which, back to my original argument, won't happen any time soon.

[Impatiens]

No need to be so pessimistic rootytoot, with all the Court action ongoing and upcoming it might happen sooner than you think. 🙂

[RootyT00t]

@Impatiens

No need to be so pessimistic rootytoot, with all the Court action ongoing and upcoming it might happen sooner than you think. 🙂

I honestly, genuinely, hope so.

People might not agree with what I say but most of it is born out of frustration and sadness I guess at the divided society we seem to have become.

But as I realised on another thread, my age sometimes means I haven't seen some of the things other people have in reverse to women's rights.

[334bu]

If everyone accepted that female spaces were just that policing would not be necessary as male people would be challenged if they tried to use them. A very few wealthy transexuals might, after extensive plastic facial surgery ,fly under the radar but most won't.

[ChewtonRoad]

What should they use? Men's toilets? They are far more at risk in there. At risk from ... other men, is it? As that's the case then shouldn't there be more impetus men to get themselves sorted out? Male on male violence must be dealt with by men, not by women.

Incidentally, I agree with a third "mixed" space. This would allow for the likes of me who wouldn't have a problem sharing a toilet with a transwoman, and trans, to use the toilets together. Unfortunately there seems to be a massive reluctance to do so much as consider third spaces, let alone acknowledge there are problems without those spaces.

The lack of acknowledgement and refusal to consider third spaces has nothing to do with any perceived rudeness, arrogance, or unkindness from women but plenty to do with men refusing to cede so much as a nanogram of status or patriarchy or to say that women and their rights exist.

[Joancapp]

Senior female as I am,82, many lives already lived. Always a feminist, without one iota of apology-

[RootyT00t]

@ChewtonRoad

What should they use? Men's toilets? They are far more at risk in there. At risk from ... other men, is it? As that's the case then shouldn't there be more impetus men to get themselves sorted out? Male on male violence must be dealt with by men, not by women.

Incidentally, I agree with a third "mixed" space. This would allow for the likes of me who wouldn't have a problem sharing a toilet with a transwoman, and trans, to use the toilets together. Unfortunately there seems to be a massive reluctance to do so much as consider third spaces, let alone acknowledge there are problems without those spaces.

The lack of acknowledgement and refusal to consider third spaces has nothing to do with any perceived rudeness, arrogance, or unkindness from women but plenty to do with men refusing to cede so much as a nanogram of status or patriarchy or to say that women and their rights exist.

Potentially, but what about transmen?

Or do we reject them in our cause?

I agree with your second point.i appreciate on these boards I'm mocked most of the time for my 'nonsensical' argument's, but it's not that. It's just that I see all sides. I agree with third spaces in toilets and prisons, despise the behaviour of TRAs but also the behaviour of many feminists in relation to the issue.

[Ereshkigalangcleg]

If everyone accepted that female spaces were just that policing would not be necessary as male people would be challenged if they tried to use them. A very few wealthy transexuals might, after extensive plastic facial surgery ,fly under the radar but most won't.

Yes, exactly. It's a tale of male entitlement as old as the hills.

[RootyT00t]

@Ereshkigalangcleg

If everyone accepted that female spaces were just that policing would not be necessary as male people would be challenged if they tried to use them. A very few wealthy transexuals might, after extensive plastic facial surgery ,fly under the radar but most won't.

Yes, exactly. It's a tale of male entitlement as old as the hills.

I don't think it is male entitlement. It's them wanting to use the toilet connected to their gender.

[Ereshkigalangcleg]

I think a male wanting to use the female single sex toilet regardless of the feelings of women and their privacy and dignity, and that it opens the back door to all males, is male entitlement. I don't believe in "gender" like you do. So we'll have to disagree on this, as on so many things.

[TeenMinusTests]

Rooty but toilets aren't separated by gender, they are separated by sex.

If there are 60+ genders then you can't have gender separated facilities.

There are only 2 sexes, so sex separated is easy, (and needed.)

[OldCrone]

I don't think it is male entitlement. It's them wanting to use the toilet connected to their gender.

Do you think we have separate sex toilets because female bodies are different from male bodies or because of a feeling in some people's heads?

[hellohelpfuladvice]

Things need to even out starting with school uniforms. They need to offer practical uniforms such as trousers and tops for girls. I don't see why things should be different for the sexes other than cut. If a school has a tie everyone should have one, not a girls version. No tie ok then everyone has a polo and shorts/ trousers. No one has to have love heart buttons and only offer girls frilly dress uniforms, just because they are a girl. If girls or boys want to get that stuff at the weekend go for it.

[hellohelpfuladvice]

Interesting I had short hair age 16- 26 so for 10 years, I never got asked out apart from by other women. Once I grew my hair I got asked out a lot. Sadly many people assume a lot by how you dress.

[RootyT00t]

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I think a male wanting to use the female single sex toilet regardless of the feelings of women and their privacy and dignity, and that it opens the back door to all males, is male entitlement. I don't believe in "gender" like you do. So we'll have to disagree on this, as on so many things.

I know.

I do respect your opinions though.

I enjoy your posts, and have learned from them.

[RootyT00t]

@OldCrone

I don't think it is male entitlement. It's them wanting to use the toilet connected to their gender.

Do you think we have separate sex toilets because female bodies are different from male bodies or because of a feeling in some people's heads?

Because of the bodies.

But trans isn't as simple as that - although I do agree that transwomen shouldn't be in women's toilets.

I do agree with a third space. I just don't agree with views and actions on both sides of the argument and think it has gone far too far.

[Impatiens]

I agree with your second point.i appreciate on these boards I'm mocked most of the time for my 'nonsensical' argument's, but it's not that. It's just that I see all sides. I agree with third spaces in toilets and prisons, despise the behaviour of TRAs but also the behaviour of many feminists in relation to the issue.

No, it isn't that you see all sides - anyone can 'see all sides', I can 'see all sides'. It's that your position really is 'nonsensical' - you claim to support Women's rights/protections on this issue but consistently argue against that and push the idea that transwomen can and will use the facilities they want to because Women aren't asking them nicely enough not to.

And you still talk about 'gender' as if it was relevant to the issue of sex-based rights.

But I can see I'm falling into the same trap as the last thread where we met, making it all about you and your feelings and ego etc. when that's really irrelevant.

[Ereshkigalangcleg]

But I can see I'm falling into the same trap as the last thread where we met, making it all about you and your feelings and ego etc. when that's really irrelevant.

Yes, it's easy to get sucked into doing this.

[RootyT00t]

@Impatiens

I agree with your second point.i appreciate on these boards I'm mocked most of the time for my 'nonsensical' argument's, but it's not that. It's just that I see all sides. I agree with third spaces in toilets and prisons, despise the behaviour of TRAs but also the behaviour of many feminists in relation to the issue.

No, it isn't that you see all sides - anyone can 'see all sides', I can 'see all sides'. It's that your position really is 'nonsensical' - you claim to support Women's rights/protections on this issue but consistently argue against that and push the idea that transwomen can and will use the facilities they want to because Women aren't asking them nicely enough not to.

And you still talk about 'gender' as if it was relevant to the issue of sex-based rights.

But I can see I'm falling into the same trap as the last thread where we met, making it all about you and your feelings and ego etc. when that's really irrelevant.

It's not about my feeling and my ego. You're making me out to be some self obsessed weirdo who pops into threads to suck people in. You got me wrong last time. I might completely disagree but I do want to understand other points of view. Otherwise I wouldn't be here.

[Impatiens]

@Ereshkigalangcleg

But I can see I'm falling into the same trap as the last thread where we met, making it all about you and your feelings and ego etc. when that's really irrelevant.

Yes, it's easy to get sucked into doing this.

Bit of a Masterclass isn't it?

[RootyT00t]

It would be, if it was true.

I can promise you whatever else you think of me, if I was going to do that , I wouldn't do it on an issue as sensitive.

I really wouldn't.

All of this just comes from the fact it's an issue I thought I was unswayed on but then you post things and it makes me think then you post something else and I'm back to where I started.

What you say as ego and feelings and making it about me is simply me trying to navigate something I'm not as rooted in as you two are.