An inclusive way to be gender critical?

[pensivepigeon]

My thoughts on gender and sex are thus:

Gender is a social construct. It is how society and individuals view the presentation of the sexes - in fashion, interests and work roles. Whereas sex is biological, we cannot change it even though we might surgically change our appearance and take artificial hormones which affect our bodily functions.

However because gender is a social construct and we are part of society we can define it. I define gender as

Female = adhering or not adhering to traditional stereotypes regarding names, fashion, interests and work roles.
Male= adhering or not adhering to traditional stereotypes regarding names, fashion, interests and work roles.

If everyone took this on board it would mean safe single sex spaces could be preserved, as people could present themselves however they want, wear what they want but use the single sex space appropriate for their sex without conflict. Uniforms would offer everyone both traditional female and male options which either sex could wear. Ditto with sports, competing takes place within the appropriate sex classes but competitors can wear either the traditional male or female competition uniforms. There would be no confusion and need to agonise over language when providing medical care.

Taking this stance stance means I have no problem when it comes to saying I am of female sex with a female gender.

So am I gender critical? Is this inclusive?

@CorvusPurpureus

My point was, if they want transwomen not to use the bathroom, they are not painting themselves in a manner that supports their cause - I can fully imagine that if I was a transwoman I would stop reading halfway through considering some of the sheer bile and rudeness.

& think...'well nuts to those bilious rude bitches, I'm totally going to head straight for their spaces despite it being spelled out to me that they really, really don't want me there'.

I stand by my earlier comment. You've a depressingly low opinion of transwomen.

No, another quite spectacular misquote.

Thanks for adding on things you've made up there, again.

I don't have a low opinion of transwomen, and all your reverse psychology in the world won't work on me.

My point was, which I have spelled out many times, and I'll be told off in a minute for derailing while someone ignores the fact I've been misquoted and asked the same question 23 times, is that if we want to overcome the issue, WE NEED TO WORK TOGETHER. As it stands , you have no way of policing it and no way of knowing who is trans and who isn't. All of this hand wringing about the future state of toilets being taken over by crowds of transwomen - you could well ahve been using toilets with transwomen for a long time and realistically you will never know.

My point was, to make this work, you need transwomen to understand the point, and not feel isolated.

Note - just because a few people on Mumsnet said it, doesn't make it right.

The day where transwomen will think I won't use that toilet because people don't want me to , I saw it online and I am less important so I'll do as they say, is nowhere near now.

Double note - I agree with single sex spaces. What I fundamentally disagree with is the way in which "some" posters are going about it, which is effectively bullying out transwomen with a good dose of emotive "oh imagine men not respecting our boundaries, bla bla".

@Impatiens

I didn't say anything like that.

Seems to be your motto!

As we are taught from being children, stamping your feet and saying NO BECAUSE I SAID SO has never worked.

That's right, which is why it will have to be done through the courts instead, where they seem able to see through the deliberate misrepresentations of the arguments to the crux of the issue.

Excellent. And I would support a court decision.

Re my motto - it is , when there's a series of complete spectacular made up misquotes.

I have nothing to hide, you can read what I said and what was quoted.
If you can find me one where you can correct me that I did in fact say that (my particular favourite was the one where it was said I implied men would rape women if they didn't let them in, when I said absolutely jack shit of the sort), I will obviously rethink my motto.

But it's not a 'misquote'.

So why do they use female toilets?

@CorvusPurpureus

But it's not a 'misquote'.

You'll excuse the irony of you correcting my word after you've spent two pages reading what I said and writing your own version.

I was being polite with misquote. Deliberately goading is nearer the mark.

@334bu

So why do they use female toilets?

Because they consider themselves a woman?

And, quite simply, because there is nothing other than a group of women online campaigning against them and ridiculing and mocking the concept they live by, to stop them.

What should they use? Men's toilets? They are far more at risk in there.

Incidentally, I agree with a third "mixed" space. This would allow for the likes of me who wouldn't have a problem sharing a toilet with a transwoman, and trans, to use the toilets together.

I don't disagree with the concept. I disagree with the manner off attempting to achieve it.

I have nothing to hide, you can read what I said and what was quoted

Yes and that's why people pick you up on what you say - then you claim you didn't say it. Every time.

I would support a court decision
Your position is so confused your support or otherwise is pretty irrelevant tbh.

@Impatiens

I have nothing to hide, you can read what I said and what was quoted

Yes and that's why people pick you up on what you say - then you claim you didn't say it. Every time.

I would support a court decision
Your position is so confused your support or otherwise is pretty irrelevant tbh.

My position isn't confused, Impatiens.

It's pretty clear.

I agree with what's been said. I don't agree with the manner.

Yes, I say I didn't say it, because I didn't.

On each occasion, the "so you're saying" has been absolutely stuff all like what I said.

No, you weren't being polite, you were being...inaccurate (& that definitely IS me being polite).

I scrupulously quoted exactly what you'd posted.

I don't care if you're floundering for a version of feminism that involves some ghastly misogynistic ideas - we have THAT argument all the time.

But it's not helping you to accuse other posters of misquoting you when everyone can see that you've been directly & accurately quoted.

What should they use? Men's toilets? They are far more at risk in there.

At risk because males are there?
But transwomen are male and just as likely to be dangerous as other males , so why put women at risk by allowing a certain type of male to use female facilities?

@CorvusPurpureus

No, you weren't being polite, you were being...inaccurate (& that definitely IS me being polite).

I scrupulously quoted exactly what you'd posted.

I don't care if you're floundering for a version of feminism that involves some ghastly misogynistic ideas - we have THAT argument all the time.

But it's not helping you to accuse other posters of misquoting you when everyone can see that you've been directly & accurately quoted.

I'm not a "ghastly misogynist" in any shape of form.

Again, incorrect.

You said I said that men who weren't welcomed by women would imply violence.

Never once said anything of the sort.

@CorvusPurpureus if you want to be that particular, then yes, your QUOTE is correct.

but your paragraph underneath of "so you are saying", isn't. on three occasions.

Am I misquoting this?

And, quite simply, because there is nothing other than a group of women online campaigning against them and ridiculing and mocking the concept they live by, to stop them.

In reference to male people accessing the female spaces you claim to support?

@334bu

*What should they use? Men's toilets? They are far more at risk in there.*

At risk because males are there?
But transwomen are male and just as likely to be dangerous as other males , so why put women at risk by allowing a certain type of male to use female facilities?

You can't have it all the ways.

If a transman is a biological female, he is at as much risk as women.

So why's it OK for them to be in there with men and not biological females?

Again, I am absolutely in favour of third spaces.

@CorvusPurpureus

Am I misquoting this?

And, quite simply, because there is nothing other than a group of women online campaigning against them and ridiculing and mocking the concept they live by, to stop them.

In reference to male people accessing the female spaces you claim to support?

Sorry what are you asking? Yes I said that.

Because it's true.

Whether they SHOULD respect it is another argument, but wanting something doesn't make it true.

I'm not a "ghastly misogynist" in any shape of form.

Again, incorrect.

It's an opinion, so it can't be incorrect. I agree with it.

Then we are back to an assumption that males won't respect female spaces, if they happen to identify as transwomen.

For the third time - you have a really low opinion of transwomen.

**a transman is a biological female, he is at as much risk as women.

So why's it OK for them to be in there with men and not biological females?**

Who says it's ok for them? Single sex means single sex.

@CorvusPurpureus

Then we are back to an assumption that males won't respect female spaces, if they happen to identify as transwomen.

For the third time - you have a really low opinion of transwomen.

No, I don't. And that is disingenuous

It's not that they won't , but I'm assuming that since we are having this debate in the fist place, thats the concern..

If transwomen all respected it (well, not that we actually have any way of knowing, do we) we wouldn't be having this bloody conversation

@Impatiens

I'm not a "ghastly misogynist" in any shape of form.

Again, incorrect.

It's an opinion, so it can't be incorrect. I agree with it.

Blow me over backwards you agree.

Opinions can't be incorrect 🤣 coming from one of the main contenders of the 'gender is nonsense' cohort

Also transmen make a deliberate choice to put themselves at risk. The women in female toilets are not given the choice if transwomen are allowed to use female facilities

@334bu

Also transmen make a deliberate choice to put themselves at risk. The women in female toilets are not given the choice if transwomen are allowed to use female facilities

There is no way of policing this though. Even with an outright ban you are relying on them.

Just because some males ignore female boundaries doesn't mean that people should not try to ensure safeguarding.

Saying that males who declare themselves women aren't actually women, is absolutely an opinion, depending on the majority definition of woman. It just has more logical and scientific backing than the alternatives.