An inclusive way to be gender critical?

[pensivepigeon]

My thoughts on gender and sex are thus:

Gender is a social construct. It is how society and individuals view the presentation of the sexes - in fashion, interests and work roles. Whereas sex is biological, we cannot change it even though we might surgically change our appearance and take artificial hormones which affect our bodily functions.

However because gender is a social construct and we are part of society we can define it. I define gender as

Female = adhering or not adhering to traditional stereotypes regarding names, fashion, interests and work roles.
Male= adhering or not adhering to traditional stereotypes regarding names, fashion, interests and work roles.

If everyone took this on board it would mean safe single sex spaces could be preserved, as people could present themselves however they want, wear what they want but use the single sex space appropriate for their sex without conflict. Uniforms would offer everyone both traditional female and male options which either sex could wear. Ditto with sports, competing takes place within the appropriate sex classes but competitors can wear either the traditional male or female competition uniforms. There would be no confusion and need to agonise over language when providing medical care.

Taking this stance stance means I have no problem when it comes to saying I am of female sex with a female gender.

So am I gender critical? Is this inclusive?

[Ereshkigalangcleg]

The word inclusive sends shivers down my spine these days. It often means "switch your brain off at the door, or don't come in at all". It also feels so....needy. There's that metaphor about "diversity is being invited to the party; inclusion is being asked to dance". Well, it might be nice to be asked to dance, but it's also everyone's right to dance with whoever they want to and nobody they don't, and stamping one's feet about it, or attempting to police it, kind of has incel vibes. Just be fabulous and do your own dance, I say!

Yes!

[RootyT00t]

@MaudTheInvincible

Yes bourbonne that's why this men's rights movement relies so heavily on the 'be kind' appeal to female socialisation. It's dependant on other people, usually women, doing things they don't want to, or saying things they know to be untrue, or believing things that are demonstrably false.

Only because there are more transwomen than trans men.

If trans men was the majority, I honestly think women would be fighting to keep them in their toilets and not in with men.

If they wouldn't, then it seems strange they would subject biological women to the risks they claim are so prevalent.

[RootyT00t]

@MrGHardy

Why do we need to be inclusive?

You don't NEED to be.

But surely everyone wants a society where people work together rather than fight one another and get nowhere.

[MaudTheInvincible]

Yes bourbonne that's why this men's rights movement relies so heavily on the 'be kind' appeal to female socialisation. It's dependant on other people, usually women, doing things they don't want to, or saying things they know to be untrue, or believing things that are demonstrably false.

[bourbonne]

The word inclusive sends shivers down my spine these days. It often means "switch your brain off at the door, or don't come in at all". It also feels so....needy. There's that metaphor about "diversity is being invited to the party; inclusion is being asked to dance". Well, it might be nice to be asked to dance, but it's also everyone's right to dance with whoever they want to and nobody they don't, and stamping one's feet about it, or attempting to police it, kind of has incel vibes. Just be fabulous and do your own dance, I say!

[Impatiens]

Good question.

[MrGHardy]

Why do we need to be inclusive?

[RootyT00t]

It would be, if it was true.

I can promise you whatever else you think of me, if I was going to do that , I wouldn't do it on an issue as sensitive.

I really wouldn't.

All of this just comes from the fact it's an issue I thought I was unswayed on but then you post things and it makes me think then you post something else and I'm back to where I started.

What you say as ego and feelings and making it about me is simply me trying to navigate something I'm not as rooted in as you two are.

[Impatiens]

@Ereshkigalangcleg

But I can see I'm falling into the same trap as the last thread where we met, making it all about you and your feelings and ego etc. when that's really irrelevant.

Yes, it's easy to get sucked into doing this.

Bit of a Masterclass isn't it?

[RootyT00t]

@Impatiens

I agree with your second point.i appreciate on these boards I'm mocked most of the time for my 'nonsensical' argument's, but it's not that. It's just that I see all sides. I agree with third spaces in toilets and prisons, despise the behaviour of TRAs but also the behaviour of many feminists in relation to the issue.

No, it isn't that you see all sides - anyone can 'see all sides', I can 'see all sides'. It's that your position really is 'nonsensical' - you claim to support Women's rights/protections on this issue but consistently argue against that and push the idea that transwomen can and will use the facilities they want to because Women aren't asking them nicely enough not to.

And you still talk about 'gender' as if it was relevant to the issue of sex-based rights.

But I can see I'm falling into the same trap as the last thread where we met, making it all about you and your feelings and ego etc. when that's really irrelevant.

It's not about my feeling and my ego. You're making me out to be some self obsessed weirdo who pops into threads to suck people in. You got me wrong last time. I might completely disagree but I do want to understand other points of view. Otherwise I wouldn't be here.

[Ereshkigalangcleg]

But I can see I'm falling into the same trap as the last thread where we met, making it all about you and your feelings and ego etc. when that's really irrelevant.

Yes, it's easy to get sucked into doing this.

[Impatiens]

I agree with your second point.i appreciate on these boards I'm mocked most of the time for my 'nonsensical' argument's, but it's not that. It's just that I see all sides. I agree with third spaces in toilets and prisons, despise the behaviour of TRAs but also the behaviour of many feminists in relation to the issue.

No, it isn't that you see all sides - anyone can 'see all sides', I can 'see all sides'. It's that your position really is 'nonsensical' - you claim to support Women's rights/protections on this issue but consistently argue against that and push the idea that transwomen can and will use the facilities they want to because Women aren't asking them nicely enough not to.

And you still talk about 'gender' as if it was relevant to the issue of sex-based rights.

But I can see I'm falling into the same trap as the last thread where we met, making it all about you and your feelings and ego etc. when that's really irrelevant.

[RootyT00t]

@OldCrone

I don't think it is male entitlement. It's them wanting to use the toilet connected to their gender.

Do you think we have separate sex toilets because female bodies are different from male bodies or because of a feeling in some people's heads?

Because of the bodies.

But trans isn't as simple as that - although I do agree that transwomen shouldn't be in women's toilets.

I do agree with a third space. I just don't agree with views and actions on both sides of the argument and think it has gone far too far.

[RootyT00t]

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I think a male wanting to use the female single sex toilet regardless of the feelings of women and their privacy and dignity, and that it opens the back door to all males, is male entitlement. I don't believe in "gender" like you do. So we'll have to disagree on this, as on so many things.

I know.

I do respect your opinions though.

I enjoy your posts, and have learned from them.

[hellohelpfuladvice]

Interesting I had short hair age 16- 26 so for 10 years, I never got asked out apart from by other women. Once I grew my hair I got asked out a lot. Sadly many people assume a lot by how you dress.

[hellohelpfuladvice]

Things need to even out starting with school uniforms. They need to offer practical uniforms such as trousers and tops for girls. I don't see why things should be different for the sexes other than cut. If a school has a tie everyone should have one, not a girls version. No tie ok then everyone has a polo and shorts/ trousers. No one has to have love heart buttons and only offer girls frilly dress uniforms, just because they are a girl. If girls or boys want to get that stuff at the weekend go for it.

[OldCrone]

I don't think it is male entitlement. It's them wanting to use the toilet connected to their gender.

Do you think we have separate sex toilets because female bodies are different from male bodies or because of a feeling in some people's heads?

[TeenMinusTests]

Rooty but toilets aren't separated by gender, they are separated by sex.

If there are 60+ genders then you can't have gender separated facilities.

There are only 2 sexes, so sex separated is easy, (and needed.)

[Ereshkigalangcleg]

I think a male wanting to use the female single sex toilet regardless of the feelings of women and their privacy and dignity, and that it opens the back door to all males, is male entitlement. I don't believe in "gender" like you do. So we'll have to disagree on this, as on so many things.

[RootyT00t]

@Ereshkigalangcleg

If everyone accepted that female spaces were just that policing would not be necessary as male people would be challenged if they tried to use them. A very few wealthy transexuals might, after extensive plastic facial surgery ,fly under the radar but most won't.

Yes, exactly. It's a tale of male entitlement as old as the hills.

I don't think it is male entitlement. It's them wanting to use the toilet connected to their gender.

[Ereshkigalangcleg]

If everyone accepted that female spaces were just that policing would not be necessary as male people would be challenged if they tried to use them. A very few wealthy transexuals might, after extensive plastic facial surgery ,fly under the radar but most won't.

Yes, exactly. It's a tale of male entitlement as old as the hills.

[RootyT00t]

@ChewtonRoad

What should they use? Men's toilets? They are far more at risk in there. At risk from ... other men, is it? As that's the case then shouldn't there be more impetus men to get themselves sorted out? Male on male violence must be dealt with by men, not by women.

Incidentally, I agree with a third "mixed" space. This would allow for the likes of me who wouldn't have a problem sharing a toilet with a transwoman, and trans, to use the toilets together. Unfortunately there seems to be a massive reluctance to do so much as consider third spaces, let alone acknowledge there are problems without those spaces.

The lack of acknowledgement and refusal to consider third spaces has nothing to do with any perceived rudeness, arrogance, or unkindness from women but plenty to do with men refusing to cede so much as a nanogram of status or patriarchy or to say that women and their rights exist.

Potentially, but what about transmen?

Or do we reject them in our cause?

I agree with your second point.i appreciate on these boards I'm mocked most of the time for my 'nonsensical' argument's, but it's not that. It's just that I see all sides. I agree with third spaces in toilets and prisons, despise the behaviour of TRAs but also the behaviour of many feminists in relation to the issue.

[Joancapp]

Senior female as I am,82, many lives already lived. Always a feminist, without one iota of apology-

[ChewtonRoad]

What should they use? Men's toilets? They are far more at risk in there. At risk from ... other men, is it? As that's the case then shouldn't there be more impetus men to get themselves sorted out? Male on male violence must be dealt with by men, not by women.

Incidentally, I agree with a third "mixed" space. This would allow for the likes of me who wouldn't have a problem sharing a toilet with a transwoman, and trans, to use the toilets together. Unfortunately there seems to be a massive reluctance to do so much as consider third spaces, let alone acknowledge there are problems without those spaces.

The lack of acknowledgement and refusal to consider third spaces has nothing to do with any perceived rudeness, arrogance, or unkindness from women but plenty to do with men refusing to cede so much as a nanogram of status or patriarchy or to say that women and their rights exist.

[334bu]

If everyone accepted that female spaces were just that policing would not be necessary as male people would be challenged if they tried to use them. A very few wealthy transexuals might, after extensive plastic facial surgery ,fly under the radar but most won't.