An inclusive way to be gender critical?

[pensivepigeon]

My thoughts on gender and sex are thus:

Gender is a social construct. It is how society and individuals view the presentation of the sexes - in fashion, interests and work roles. Whereas sex is biological, we cannot change it even though we might surgically change our appearance and take artificial hormones which affect our bodily functions.

However because gender is a social construct and we are part of society we can define it. I define gender as

Female = adhering or not adhering to traditional stereotypes regarding names, fashion, interests and work roles.
Male= adhering or not adhering to traditional stereotypes regarding names, fashion, interests and work roles.

If everyone took this on board it would mean safe single sex spaces could be preserved, as people could present themselves however they want, wear what they want but use the single sex space appropriate for their sex without conflict. Uniforms would offer everyone both traditional female and male options which either sex could wear. Ditto with sports, competing takes place within the appropriate sex classes but competitors can wear either the traditional male or female competition uniforms. There would be no confusion and need to agonise over language when providing medical care.

Taking this stance stance means I have no problem when it comes to saying I am of female sex with a female gender.

So am I gender critical? Is this inclusive?

@CorvusPurpureus

So you don't think that women should have the right to female only spaces, Rooty?

We are going to part company there.

Quote me where I said that.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Other than asking transwomen to stay out and respect them, which I'm sure they will be jumping to do given the respectful voice of many feminists on here towards trans...

As I've said many times before, it's not exactly a surprise that males don't respect women's boundaries.

Well bugger me, an implied threat that some males will decide to ignore female boundaries AND be more inclined to do so if the women are outspoken in telling them NO.

Yeah, I'm incredibly tired of this shit.

@334bu

*That's very different to protecting women from men.*

Protecting them from rape is not protecting women from males? Did you not read the reasons for the need for female only toilets in the Third World?

I didn't say that either.

I said the ONLY reason we have female toilets is not to protect women from being sexually assaulted.

As for your point on the war, why are you saying that as if it would be absolutely ridiculous that I haven't?

many posters expect transwomen to stay out of their spaces

There you go, Rooty.

Do you think those posters are entitled to female spaces?

@CorvusPurpureus

many posters expect transwomen to stay out of their spaces

There you go, Rooty.

Do you think those posters are entitled to female spaces?

Sorry, I think I asked you to quote where I said women shouldn't have single spaces?

Because I do agree they should.

What I find hard to comprehend is why people are so passionate in segregating themselves from men and transwomen and berating these groups and then wondering why 'some' transwomen are not on side.

Two completely different arguments.

Of course it's not the only reason but it is one of them. The male sex of all gender identities are statistically a clear and present danger to members of the female sex of all gender identities.

@CorvusPurpureus I didn't say anything like that. I'd appreciate it you'd stop completely misquoting me.

Well bugger me, an implied threat that some males will decide to ignore female boundaries AND be more inclined to do so if the women are outspoken in telling them NO.

Yeah, I'm incredibly tired of this shit

Yep, me too.

What I find hard to comprehend is why people are so passionate in segregating themselves from men and transwomen and berating these groups and then wondering why 'some' transwomen are not on side.

Answer; 99.9% of all sex offences are committed by people born male.
86% of all violent offences also male born people. Transwomen as likely as other males to commit such crimes.

[quote RootyT00t]@CorvusPurpureus I didn't say anything like that. I'd appreciate it you'd stop completely misquoting me.[/quote]
I'm terribly sorry if I misquoted you - specify & I'll correct it.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Well bugger me, an implied threat that some males will decide to ignore female boundaries AND be more inclined to do so if the women are outspoken in telling them NO.

Yeah, I'm incredibly tired of this shit

Yep, me too.

Oh here you are again.

Two supporting misquotes of my posts in two minutes, after you weren't engaging with me any further.

Corvus -

The one about the implied threat. I said nothing of the sort.

My point was, however right women think they are, as it stands, they have no control over who goes into their bathrooms. What they are relying on is transwomen not going in , and respecting how they feel on this.

The current stance is literally women saying "NO YOU CAN'T" while transwomen walk in because not only is there no way to police this, it isn't law, it isn't anything really, it's just a group of women online telling them they can't.

My point was, if they want transwomen not to use the bathroom, they are not painting themselves in a manner that supports their cause - I can fully imagine that if I was a transwoman I would stop reading halfway through considering some of the sheer bile and rudeness.

I said nothing about rape, violence, or anything else. Because in the real world, not on MN where if anyone dares mention that women can't just say NO to whatever they like and people must do it, orhterwise they are implying rape, not everything relates to that.

You aren't making much sense, Rooty, to be fair.

You think it's ok for women to have female only spaces - but you simultaneously think that if we 'segregate' ourselves then that might upset transwomen. Oh, & also men.

These 'groups' might then not be very happy about it & not feel inclined to respect our spaces.

In my experience, the transwomen I know aren't disrespectful of women's single sex spaces, I'm happy to say.

So you do accept that male people are dangerous in places where women are vulnerable?

Answer; 99.9% of all sex offences are committed by people born male.
86% of all violent offences also male born people. Transwomen as likely as other males to commit such crimes.

Yes, and it's an issue of privacy and dignity as well as safety. Women's feelings should matter as much as those of male people, whatever their gender identity.

@CorvusPurpureus

You aren't making much sense, Rooty, to be fair.

You think it's ok for women to have female only spaces - but you simultaneously think that if we 'segregate' ourselves then that might upset transwomen. Oh, & also men.

These 'groups' might then not be very happy about it & not feel inclined to respect our spaces.

In my experience, the transwomen I know aren't disrespectful of women's single sex spaces, I'm happy to say.

No, I didn't say that either.

I do think it's OK for women to have female only spaces. Yes.

But simultaneously, I think that the way in which women (or rather some of the women on these threads) speak about this issue will do more to deepen the divide between feminists and (many) trans people.

Nothing to do with upsetting transwomen, and I've n idea why you've mentioned men because that's a separate issue entirely.

I didn't say they might not be happy about it. I said you are relying on them to stay out, by basically berating them, bullying them and shouting louder than them.

Not the technique I would use

BUt then this is a circular argument, because before long one of the main gang will be along to tell me that it's not their job to have techniques because transwomen should just do as they bloody well said, because they said so, and if they don't well that just proves that men don't respect boundaries.

The sad thing is people really, really can't see it.

No, neither are mine. And they have about as much interest as violating women as flying to the moon.

@334bu

So you do accept that male people are dangerous in places where women are vulnerable?

No. I've yet to see anything that compels me that when I sit in the office with my male colleague all day then go to the (unisex) toilet at the end of our corridor that I am much more at risk.

Doesn't mean I don't agree with single sex spaces.

The current stance is literally women saying "NO YOU CAN'T" while transwomen walk in because not only is there no way to police this, it isn't law, it isn't anything really, it's just a group of women online telling them they can't.

My point was, if they want transwomen not to use the bathroom, they are not painting themselves in a manner that supports their cause.

You've put your finger on it - rude, unruly Women are the problem here. If only they would be a bit nicer and kinder it would all be alright. What a shame.

My point was, if they want transwomen not to use the bathroom, they are not painting themselves in a manner that supports their cause - I can fully imagine that if I was a transwoman I would stop reading halfway through considering some of the sheer bile and rudeness.

& think...'well nuts to those bilious rude bitches, I'm totally going to head straight for their spaces despite it being spelled out to me that they really, really don't want me there'.

I stand by my earlier comment. You've a depressingly low opinion of transwomen.

As transwomen are well aware what sex they are I would assume that using female toilets is a deliberate decision to use a space not designated for them and if there is some criticism of that , well it is hardly surprising ?

@Impatiens

The current stance is literally women saying "NO YOU CAN'T" while transwomen walk in because not only is there no way to police this, it isn't law, it isn't anything really, it's just a group of women online telling them they can't.

My point was, if they want transwomen not to use the bathroom, they are not painting themselves in a manner that supports their cause.

You've put your finger on it - rude, unruly Women are the problem here. If only they would be a bit nicer and kinder it would all be alright. What a shame.

I shouldn't laugh really, but

"BUt then this is a circular argument, because before long one of the main gang will be along to tell me that it's not their job to have techniques because transwomen should just do as they bloody well said, because they said so, and if they don't well that just proves that men don't respect boundaries."

and right on cue.

I didn't say anything like that.

I mean you can be right, and women women women, but you still are no closer to banning transwomen from your toilets, and I'll be utterly staggered if it is managed in my life time.

As we are taught from being children, stamping your feet and saying NO BECAUSE I SAID SO has never worked.

@334bu

As transwomen are well aware what sex they are I would assume that using female toilets is a deliberate decision to use a space not designated for them and if there is some criticism of that , well it is hardly surprising ?

You've hit the nail on the head.

Transwomen get up in the morning and think oh I know what I'll do, I'll go and use that toilet I'm not supposed to, and wind up some women.

Because it's all about women.

Do why do they do it?

What I find hard to comprehend is why people are so passionate in segregating themselves from men and transwomen and berating these groups and then wondering why 'some' transwomen are not on side.

You asked why I mentioned 'men'? I was responding to this post of yours.

I didn't say anything like that.

Seems to be your motto!

As we are taught from being children, stamping your feet and saying NO BECAUSE I SAID SO has never worked.

That's right, which is why it will have to be done through the courts instead, where they seem able to see through the deliberate misrepresentations of the arguments to the crux of the issue.