An inclusive way to be gender critical?

[pensivepigeon]

My thoughts on gender and sex are thus:

Gender is a social construct. It is how society and individuals view the presentation of the sexes - in fashion, interests and work roles. Whereas sex is biological, we cannot change it even though we might surgically change our appearance and take artificial hormones which affect our bodily functions.

However because gender is a social construct and we are part of society we can define it. I define gender as

Female = adhering or not adhering to traditional stereotypes regarding names, fashion, interests and work roles.
Male= adhering or not adhering to traditional stereotypes regarding names, fashion, interests and work roles.

If everyone took this on board it would mean safe single sex spaces could be preserved, as people could present themselves however they want, wear what they want but use the single sex space appropriate for their sex without conflict. Uniforms would offer everyone both traditional female and male options which either sex could wear. Ditto with sports, competing takes place within the appropriate sex classes but competitors can wear either the traditional male or female competition uniforms. There would be no confusion and need to agonise over language when providing medical care.

Taking this stance stance means I have no problem when it comes to saying I am of female sex with a female gender.

So am I gender critical? Is this inclusive?

Yeah as i say.

Disingenuous bullshit.

Speak for yourself, @RedToothBrush. I am sincere.

Do you disagree? with my statement that:

                        <span class="italic">There is no causal link between sex and gender.</span>

Pensive. Of course people agree with that statement. I don’t think anyone here is arguing with that.

If you speak to TRAs gender is not understood as ‘sex stereotypes’ and gender identity is something completely different again.

TRAs will agree that gender stereotypes are bad and also say that gender identity has nothing to do with gender stereotypes or gender expression.

Gender identity seems to more about what sex people feel they are (whether or not biology aligns and however that is expressed).

So if you say a space is single sex, TRAs say people should use the one that matches their inner feeling and this won’t change however widely you define the stereotypes of gender.

They are identifying as the sex, not the gender.

They are identifying as the sex, not the gender

So that's what we tackle. I'm just proposing we do that within the frame work of what gender actually is in reality. That there isn't a causal link between sex and gender and that you cannot change sex but that gender can be more fluid.

That there isn't a causal link between sex and gender and that you cannot change sex but that gender can be more fluid.

Who is it you think doesn’t already know this?

@pensivepigeon

They are identifying as the sex, not the gender

So that's what we tackle. I'm just proposing we do that within the frame work of what gender actually is in reality. That there isn't a causal link between sex and gender and that you cannot change sex but that gender can be more fluid.

That there isn't a causal link between sex and gender.

This is basic feminism. Which just shows how sexist the whole ideology is.
There are many people who believe that because you have a female body (sex) you are inherently more emotional, and caring and nurturing (gender) etc. etc.

Please give one specific example of;

How you will widen the meaning of 'gender'.
How you will take charge of the language.
How you will influence others to follow your lead.

Just to note that I don't think the OP has answered TheInebriati's questions? Without these practical answers it's all a whimsical pipe dream.

I'm trying to work out why my well considered and thoughtful post, based on Abigail's Shrier's book has been deleted. It was factual and based on human compassion, though not conforming to a set narrative.

Truth hurts sometimes, doesn't it?

The fact that sex exists is a material reality.......and when this reality is found to still be relevant, even after transition, it is re-coded and re-named transphobia.

You cannot change millennia of programming and instinctive recognition of sex, though. This comes as a great pain to those who sought out transition as a way to escape, or to reinvent oneself.

i've always been interested in the experiences of young transmen in so far as their experience of using male facilities, and playing in male team sport. Do they really feel comfortable in those situations? Or is it the case that friendships and communities are forged in fairly narrow and affirmative worlds.........The world beyond is inherently transphobic, and therefore the real source of their suffering.

@Justhadathought

I'm trying to work out why my well considered and thoughtful post, based on Abigail's Shrier's book has been deleted. It was factual and based on human compassion, though not conforming to a set narrative.

Truth hurts sometimes, doesn't it?

I was wondering the same?

I'm re-posting this based on the advice of MN - with one amendment

This is the the crux.

i've just started reading Abigail Shrier's book on ROGD 'Irreversible Damage'. This book deals with the trans craze gripping young women and pubescent girls, none of whom had ever shown signs of obvious dysmorphia/dysphoria beforehand.

The girls are 'radicalised' and 'recruited' on-line, via trans 'influencers' and communities.Transitioning is posited as the solution to existential or identity crisis; to depression, to anxiety. It is an affirmative. positive community - that takes on the role of a surrogate family. Young people document their 'progress'; show their scars; give tips on breast binders, and are fed trans narrative lines with which to fool their parents and health care workers.

The narrative that one can 'change gender' ( which really means change 'sex') is never questioned. So when transitioning, to the extent that you under-go surgery, does not turn out to be the magic bullet to all of your sufferings and struggles - the only conclusion is that it is a transphobic world that is to blame. If only women were kinder; if only people were not such bigots......

That sex is a material reality, which persists even after transition; and which is unconsciously and instinctively registered by people, just seems evidence of transphobia. That sexual orientation still exists is also a major issue. In spite of transition, the romantic relationship pool shrinks significantly. Gay men fancy men, and heterosexual women fancy men, and can tell the difference.

I have't finished the book yet, but I've long been interested to hear from young transmen if they really do feel comfortable using men's facilities, or playing male team sport. Do they not feel at all threatened or fearful when alone in a toilet block in the presence of men using urinals?

In an on-line community, or in a carefully curated social world one might feel accepted and encouraged in the trans narrative - but in the real world sex matters, and people recognise it.

Sorry, I didn't see your earlier post @Justhadathought before it was deleted. I really do empathise with the current situation. I think there are far too many ways people's natural responses to the society we live in are medicalised are regarded as 'treatable' through potentially (mostly actually) harmful drugs and surgeries.

You say this:

The narrative that one can 'change gender' ( which really means change 'sex') is never questioned.

I think this narrative can be changed if it is accepted sex and gender are different. Sex as a material concept cannot be changed but gender, as a cultural concept, is fluid as culture is ever evolving.

You cannot change millennia of programming and instinctive recognition of sex, though.

Absolutely. And this occurs across different cultures with different clothing conventions, hairstyles, forms of face and body painting, jewellery, roles within society and different language and naming conventions. Different forms of gender expression and identity don't change sex.

"That there isn't a causal link between sex and gender and that you cannot change sex but that gender can be more fluid"

Who is it you think doesn’t already know this?

Great then. You all agree. Perhaps we can start saying it instead of shutting down conversations over the nature of gender?

Absolutely. And this occurs across different cultures with different clothing conventions, hairstyles, forms of face and body painting, jewellery, roles within society and different language and naming conventions. Different forms of gender expression and identity don't change sex

Beyond the traits you list above - which are really just sex based gender norms - which vary according to culture and society -people also recognise sex through the five senses, primarily sight. Gait, voice, size; all sorts of barely registered unconscious/instinctive 'clues' - which have nothing to do with hair style, clothing or similar.

Great then. You all agree. Perhaps we can start saying it instead of shutting down conversations over the nature of gender

You are now back to your original starting point.......which was predicated on not really grasping that the trans community is not interested in flexible definitions of gender, but on the insistence that sex is the same as gender identity, and that one can actually change sex.

It is not GC people who need to learn flexibility. You are preaching to the wrong crowd. Contemporary trans activism wants us to accept there there is literally, materially no difference. to that end they want to do away with sex, with the word sex and what sex implies.

Even the word transexualism is now seen as transphobic, as it emphasises sex, not gender. Transexuals never really believed that you could change sex; they simply sought some end to their extreme dysphoria. They also never insisted that the whole world be re-aligned on their account.

Beyond the traits you list above - which are really just sex based gender norms - which vary according to culture and society -people also recognise sex through the five senses, primarily sight. Gait, voice, size; all sorts of barely registered unconscious/instinctive 'clues' - which have nothing to do with hair style, clothing or similar.

Absolutely and this is my point! Even with all the things that alter appearance and men and woman taking different roles (not necessarily from each other but across societies) which use different naming conventions and have different languages we still can recognise the males and females.

You are now back to your original starting point.......which was predicated on not really grasping that the trans community is not interested in flexible definitions of gender, but on the insistence that sex is the same as gender identity, and that one can actually change sex.

Now, on reading these boards, I originally thought TRA stood for Trans Radical Activist. Only recently I realised it actually stands for Trans Rights Advocate. I don't think I would necessarily have much chance persuading the former however the latter maybe more reasonable.

I think this narrative can be changed if it is accepted sex and gender are different. Sex as a material concept cannot be changed but gender, as a cultural concept, is fluid as culture is ever evolving.

That doesn't work because what people usually mean by 'gender identity' is actually 'sex identity' so it doesn't matter how you define gender - it's not what they are talking about. And it doesn't matter that sex can't be changed because that's still how people identify.

e.g. People who feel a lot younger or older than their age. Age as a material concept can't be changed but that doesn't stop how they feel.

It doesn't matter if people express themselves in a way associated with younger or older people but sometimes it does matter to know people's actual age e.g. for health or safeguarding purposes.

100/1 says you hate the word "cis", so I used non-trans, and in this context I was discussing people in general, not women in particular

In feeling the need to redefine and re-label women as 'cis' or 'non -trans', you are imposing upon them a construct with which they disagree profoundly; and with which which they do not identify. Just call women, women. and call trans people, trans. Then everyone is having their reality honoured.

You see, this is not just a matter of kindness and 'inclusivity' but a matter of forceful ideological imposition. That is the issue.

I don't think I would necessarily have much chance persuading the former however the latter maybe more reasonable.

Go to it then. Good luck!

@pensivepigeon

"That there isn't a causal link between sex and gender and that you cannot change sex but that gender can be more fluid"

Who is it you think doesn’t already know this?

Great then. You all agree. Perhaps we can start saying it instead of shutting down conversations over the nature of gender?

Have you read anything on this board ever?

That there isn't a causal link between sex and gender is just feminism. Pretty much the whole point of this board.

I don't understand who you think is shutting down conversations over the nature of gender? If you do even a basic search you will find hundreds of conversations about gender on here.

Bollox
Posted in error whilst still composing thoughts. Will ask for deletion then repost a clearer post