An inclusive way to be gender critical?

[pensivepigeon]

My thoughts on gender and sex are thus:

Gender is a social construct. It is how society and individuals view the presentation of the sexes - in fashion, interests and work roles. Whereas sex is biological, we cannot change it even though we might surgically change our appearance and take artificial hormones which affect our bodily functions.

However because gender is a social construct and we are part of society we can define it. I define gender as

Female = adhering or not adhering to traditional stereotypes regarding names, fashion, interests and work roles.
Male= adhering or not adhering to traditional stereotypes regarding names, fashion, interests and work roles.

If everyone took this on board it would mean safe single sex spaces could be preserved, as people could present themselves however they want, wear what they want but use the single sex space appropriate for their sex without conflict. Uniforms would offer everyone both traditional female and male options which either sex could wear. Ditto with sports, competing takes place within the appropriate sex classes but competitors can wear either the traditional male or female competition uniforms. There would be no confusion and need to agonise over language when providing medical care.

Taking this stance stance means I have no problem when it comes to saying I am of female sex with a female gender.

So am I gender critical? Is this inclusive?

OP, we don't need to define it.

We are free to 'arrogantly' reject it.

It's not helpful to us as a class of people. At best it's irrelevant & more often it's harmful.

Your 'nuance' is the other cheek of Rooty's 'women: don't be arrogant' 's arse.

I think we should be bloody arrogant, actually, if that means having the effrontery to defend our rights.

I think we should be bloody arrogant, actually, if that means having the effrontery to defend our rights.

👏

I'm not sure, OP, that you're arguing in good faith, but I'm inclined to give you the benefit of the doubt.

You're straining, as it were, the metaphor!

You are NOT making a good case for your ideas about gender, in my opinion - & I've read the whole thread.

I think you are missing the fundamental point that we are concerned about women's rights, & gender is not really our problem to solve.

On compromise:

"Meet me in the middle," says the unjust man.
You take a step forwards.
He takes a step back.
"Meet me in the middle," says the unjust man.

Whoever would have thought, a decade or two ago, that saying that a woman is an adult human female would be so controversial that very few politicians would be willing to say it openly?

Women should not have to compromise on their sex-based rights.

s, & gender is not really our problem to solve.

I'm prepared to take ownership of any problem which affects me and other women. I've got a solution. I studied linguistics as part of a degree way back. I'm well versed in language acquisition and evolving meanings. Language changes all the time and a war of ideologies is rooted in its language. I say, let's take charge and utilise this!

Can you explain how you will do that? Take charge of what, and how?

Take charge of the language. Gender being the term focussed upon in this thread. Just consistently encourage the new usage, as I've spelt it out here, in discussions. Then people adopt it. Fairly simple process.

I'm prepared to take ownership of any problems which affects me and other women. Hm.

Yesterday two men expected me to open and hold doors for them. One chap took offence to my not doing so and shouted abuse, the other clocked the situation and opened the door for me, for which I thanked him.

In the shops today the chap who was to have responded to the Need Assistance? request helped others before even glancing in my direction, and only then when I spoke up and said "Can you help with this please".

Given being shouted at for not doing something beneficial for a man and being ignored leads me to think that compromise or using ideologies and language isn't going to do much for women in the short or long term.

Deeds, not words.

Deeds, not words.

Words, unspoken and/or spoken come before deeds. Unless those deeds are completely involuntary.

Crack on, OP.

There's no shortage of posters on here with linguistics as part of our professional background. Some of us even teach.

You do that bit, & others of us will focus on the 'defending our sex based rights' bit.

On compromise:

"Meet me in the middle," says the unjust man.
You take a step forwards.
He takes a step back.
"Meet me in the middle," says the unjust man.

Yep

Done some teaching in my time too. Retired from all that now, though (thankfully).

Fuck Nuance and Fuck Compromise. Women have been fighting against the erosion of sex for at least 10 years. Those early pioneers tried Compromise and it was thrown back it their face. Now that the legal cases and the House of Lords are being won, Compromise sought, nope, nada. May the House of cards come crashing down! And love and healing for the Women and Children who were unable to be safeguarded.

Women have been fighting against the erosion of sex for at least 10 years

I'm talking about shifting the focus to the actual meaning of gender in today's society. Putting that (gender) under more scrutiny and evolving the meaning to suit. I'm not suggesting any compromising of women's rights or eroding sex, I'm talking about doing the former in order to uphold the latter.

Fuck Nuance and Fuck Compromise

Really, well I suppose tastes these days are pretty diverse...

Please give one specific example of;

How you will widen the meaning of 'gender'.
How you will take charge of the language.
How you will influence others to follow your lead.

@pensivepigeon

. History shows that women dont get a say in how gender is defined.

Historically maybe. But this needn't be true of the future.

Tell me then, why my childhood has been erased and my ability to define my own identity is being taken away by males dominating the conversation.

Then have a chat with lesbians.

Then get back to me about how late transitioning males are dominating the conversation about teenage girls transition.

Definitely looks like women are winning history if you are a blind newt.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Well, when you present your stance so arrogantly

Women refusing consent to males is arrogant, now.

Bewilderness covered this:

1st rule of misogyny: Women are responsible for what men do.

2nd rule of misogyny: Women saying no to men is a hate crime.

3rd rule of misogyny: Women speaking for themselves are exclusionary and selfish.

4th rule of misogyny: Women's opinions are violence against men thus male violence against women is justified.

5th rule of misogyny: WATM! [What about the Men] Women and Feminism must be useful to men or they are worthless.

6th rule of misogyny: Women who go around being female AT men by menstruating and breast feeding babies deserve punishment.

7th rule of misogyny: Women should always be grateful to men for everything.

8th rule of misogyny: Men are whatever men say they are and women are whatever men say they are.

9th rule of misogyny: Men always know the "real reasons" for everything women do and say.

10th rule of misogyny: The worst thing about male violence is that it males men look bad.

11th rule of misogyny: Basic pattern recognition skills are cruel and evil when they hurt men's feelings.

12th rule of misogyny: whatever women suffer from, men suffer from more.

@pensivepigeon

Women have been fighting against the erosion of sex for at least 10 years

I'm talking about shifting the focus to the actual meaning of gender in today's society. Putting that (gender) under more scrutiny and evolving the meaning to suit. I'm not suggesting any compromising of women's rights or eroding sex, I'm talking about doing the former in order to uphold the latter.

Gender Stereotypes haven't changed one bit since I started studying the subject way back at school in 1993.

If anything they have got far worse and more extreme with social media and unrealistic / doctored / filtered insta images.

Gender Stereotypes haven't changed one bit since I started studying the subject way back at school in 1993.

If anything they have got far worse and more extreme with social media and unrealistic / doctored / filtered insta images.

YY.

I must admit the disingenous stuff is so tedious.

Our lived experience as women and our opinions as women are constantly derided as not worthy/good enough. Talking about wanting to maintain our rights and dignity is not acceptable apparently. Like wtf?

What other civil rights movement actively campaigned to remove the existing legal rights and protections of another group?

Women live their whole lives having to justify everything they do in a way that men don't, and that men don't even realise exists.

Men don't get talked to in the same patronising terms.

Its bullshit, and I'm done with playing along with the narrative that trans people are the most vulnerable/powerless etc in society.

They are not. We know they are not. They have a whole lobby industry dedicated to them and shitting over homosexuals. There is a whole bit pharma industry backing them up and is pushing pill to minors.

The Emperor has no clothes.

There is no compromise on rights. Framing removal of rights as compromise is not a compromise and is not acceptable.

The narrative of women is -

How do I protect my safety and my maintain my dignity?
How do I continue to uphold my rights as the currently exist and to ensure they are accurately enforced in line with the law?
How do I ensure I am represented by women who seek to represent women's collective interests rather than the rights of individuals alone?
How do ensure that areas where women are second class are changed - eg in healthcare?
How do we protect data and language which enables us to identify and explain injustices and discrimination against on the basis of sex and biological reality (rather than gender) accurately?

These are not things we can compromise without harming ourselves.

The age old questions of why is it always women who are being redefined in law and in language but the definitions of men remain unchanged and never questioned? Men and non-men.

It always comes back to why is it women being asked to budge up whilst men just manspread with no discomfort and a look of distain when you nudge them to stop taking up half your seat in addition to their own?

No. Had enough of going along with the same old bullshit narrative.

Definitely looks like women are winning history if you are a blind newt.

Talk about being defeatist. If people take that attitude what would be the point of even bothering to try? What about what women have achieved? And can achieve?

1st rule of misogyny

Just don't conform to the misogynistic rules

Gender Stereotypes haven't changed one bit since I started studying the subject way back at school in 1993.

So it's about time they did really to reflect the change in society.

Framing removal of rights as compromise is not a compromise and is not acceptable.

But that is not the compromise I am suggesting. I HAVE MAINTAINED ALL THE WAY THROUGHOUT THIS THREAD AND OTHERS THAT THE PROTECTIONS AND PROVISIONS MADE FOR BIOLOGICAL FEMALES UNDER UK LAW SHOULD REMAIN. (Sorry for shouting just needed to obliterate that particular straw man)

My proposal is fairly simple centred around this idea:

                                     <span class="italic">There is no causal link between sex and gender.</span>