An inclusive way to be gender critical?

[pensivepigeon]

My thoughts on gender and sex are thus:

Gender is a social construct. It is how society and individuals view the presentation of the sexes - in fashion, interests and work roles. Whereas sex is biological, we cannot change it even though we might surgically change our appearance and take artificial hormones which affect our bodily functions.

However because gender is a social construct and we are part of society we can define it. I define gender as

Female = adhering or not adhering to traditional stereotypes regarding names, fashion, interests and work roles.
Male= adhering or not adhering to traditional stereotypes regarding names, fashion, interests and work roles.

If everyone took this on board it would mean safe single sex spaces could be preserved, as people could present themselves however they want, wear what they want but use the single sex space appropriate for their sex without conflict. Uniforms would offer everyone both traditional female and male options which either sex could wear. Ditto with sports, competing takes place within the appropriate sex classes but competitors can wear either the traditional male or female competition uniforms. There would be no confusion and need to agonise over language when providing medical care.

Taking this stance stance means I have no problem when it comes to saying I am of female sex with a female gender.

So am I gender critical? Is this inclusive?

OP , some reading for you

streetvoiceuk2020.wordpress.com/2020/06/19/a-trans-womans-observation-into-the-madness-of-the-trans-debate/

Great then. You all agree. Perhaps we can start saying it instead of shutting down conversations over the nature of gender?

I got banned from Twitter for 24 hours for saying that as you don't play sports with your gender, but your sexed body, men and transwomen who have a male body, shouldn't be allowed to play in womens sports. So good luck in talking to transactivists on separating sex and gender.

Well. Thanks everyone for your thoughts. I put my idea there out for consideration and I think I've posted enough to make my position clear. I will leave you all now (at least for a while) for us all to consider fully what I've said.

Glad to have been of humble service oh thinker of incredibly wise and never ever considered before thoughts.

Thanks for sorting out the TRA/feminist conflict. Are you off to spread the news to the rest of the nation?

@NotDavidTennant
The third paragraph in, the authors state "Every person has a gender identity", but provide no citation or supporting evidence.

Can you cite any evidence that all people (or even most people) have a gender identity?

Their are multiple cites in the paper. Follow them. It's like asking for cites for the statement "every person has a sexuality." You really don't need me to do that work for you.

@jellyfrizz

DadJoke Can you see that by de-linking woman from biology, you are taking away my identity. Using your definition of woman I do not know what my gender identity is. What am I supposed to be identifying with if not biology or gender stereotypes?

DadJoke, you're back!

You were helping me out with exploring my gender identity. I think you missed my question above. ^^

sanluca

I got chucked off twitter for saying exactly the same thing last year. Common sense and logic are not appreciated by "furries".

I will leave you all now (at least for a while) for us all to consider fully what I've said.

Two questions: what are we supposed to be considering? That gender is not sex? That gender has nothing to do with single sex spaces? That transactivists don't listen when we tell them that for 1 millionth time?

Second question: are you considering what others said here? Or is this a one way 'debate'?

“Their are multiple cites in the paper. Follow them. It's like asking for cites for the statement "every person has a sexuality." You really don't need me to do that work for you.”

So you believe someone’s sweeping statement “everyone has a gender identity” despite the fact that several women (for this purposes we’ll keep the real definition of woman as an adult biological female) telling you that they don’t have a gender identity? I sure as hell don’t have a gender identity, no one has been able to prove to me that gender even exists. Are you just on the wind up or are you really that blind?

Two questions: what are we supposed to be considering? That gender is not sex? That gender has nothing to do with single sex spaces? That transactivists don't listen when we tell them that for 1 millionth time?

Second question: are you considering what others said here? Or is this a one way 'debate'?

I think you answered your second question there.

No one is interested in reading your "multiple cites" DadJoke. Explain it in your own words, or not. I don't have a gender identity. Please explain why you consider everyone does, with or without reference to your "cites".

I sure as hell don’t have a gender identity, no one has been able to prove to me that gender even exists. Are you just on the wind up or are you really that blind?

Having conversed with DadJoke on this topic before, his views on this appear to be becoming more extremist.

@Ereshkigalangcleg that’s why I assumed wind up! I’ll still not so kindly decline to assume a gender identity even if it’s not a wind up though, think we all have enough real problems without having to chuck in that too. Besides I have enough of an identity crisis over whether I should use the long version of my name or the short version when introducing myself without having to decided what gender I am too

@Ereshkigalangcleg
No one is interested in reading your "multiple cites" DadJoke. Explain it in your own words, or not. I don't have a gender identity. Please explain why you consider everyone does, with or without reference to your "cites".

Your own disbelief in scientific evidence is not my responsbility. If you can answer yes to the question "Am I a woman?" then your gender identity is woman, by definition.

I've pointed you at the scientific literature - that's quite enough. I've been there with antivaxxers and and climate change deniers, and I've learned that's a journey they have to make themselves.

@jellyfrizz

Can you see that by de-linking woman from biology, you are taking away my identity. Using your definition of woman I do not know what my gender identity is. What am I supposed to be identifying with if not biology or gender stereotypes?

It's very very simple. If you answer the question "Are you a woman" yes, that's your gender identity. If your sex matches your answer then you aren't transgender. If it does, then you are. Gender identity isn't gender roles or gender sterotypes. People don't notice their gender identity as a thing if it matches their sex, any more than they notice proprioception unless it's pointed out to them.

Why you think that this erases your sex or the oppression rooted in reproductive rights, I don't know. Trans men and non-trans women share many of the same issues around reproduction. Trans women and non-trans women suffer from sexism and misogyny.

I’ll still not so kindly decline to assume a gender identity even if it’s not a wind up though

Same here.

Your own disbelief in scientific evidence is not my responsbility. If you can answer yes to the question "Am I a woman?" then your gender identity is woman, by definition.

No. You are conflating TRA pseudoscience about wrong bodies for lady brains with me simply knowing I am female. I don't have a "gender identity" in any other way, and I do not believe in them.

Why you think that this erases your sex or the oppression rooted in reproductive rights, I don't know. Trans men and non-trans women share many of the same issues around reproduction. Trans women and non-trans women suffer from sexism and misogyny.

Only female people suffer sexism on the grounds of being female, and misogyny. MTF trans people suffer other things, but not those things. I would rather concern myself with women and girls, males can advocate for their own rights, as they always have.

Trans men and non-trans women share many of the same issues around reproduction.

News just in: they're both biologically FEMALE, unlike MTF trans people.

It's very very simple. If you answer the question "Are you a woman" yes, that's your gender identity. If your sex matches your answer then you aren't transgender. If it does, then you are.

If ‘woman’ is not attached to sex, or stereotypes as you suggest then I don’t understand what it is or why I would identify with it.

If your sex matches your answer then you aren't transgender.

Wait. Matches what?

It's very very simple. If you answer the question "Are you a woman" yes, that's your gender identity. If your sex matches your answer then you aren't transgender. If it does, then you are

I don't understand this. Breaking it down

"Are you a woman" ?

Yes, I am.

"That's your gender identity"

so my "gender identity" is "woman"

"If your sex matches your answer then you aren't transgender"
so my sex and my gender identity is "woman" , so I'm not trans

If it does, then you are what is "it" ?

@Ereshkigalangcleg
No. You are conflating TRA pseudoscience about wrong bodies for lady brains with me simply knowing I am female. I don't have a "gender identity" in any other way, and I do not believe in them.

Every reputable international and national psychological and medical organisation are not staffed by pseudoscientists. They are not "TRAs." How the evidence informs activism is another matter.

@MissBarbary

Sorry, - a typo i f your sex matches your answer then you aren't transgender. If it does, then you are*

Should be:

if your sex matches your answer then you aren't transgender. If it does, then you aren't.

That still makes no sense. If anything it makes less sense are saying the same thing in both statements.