History in the making! Watch Parliament Live at 2.30pm!

[Sunkisses]

According to @SexMattersOrg on Twitter the Govt have backed down on the MOMA (Maternity) Bill and will now use the word 'mother' not 'person' in the legislation!

Women did this! We are winning!

Tune in live here at 2.30pm to see history in the making: www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/3ca1efa2-16a5-489d-a5a0-5d929bff81f6

[NecessaryScene1]

What power?

The power to go on maternity leave if they become ministers?

[yourhairiswinterfire]

@AskingQuestionsAllTheTime

I suspect that if a pregnant Minister wants to claim maternity leave, which is what this is about, she probably isn't planning to have an abortion.

Beat me to it.

How are people this daft, honestly?

[FlibbertyGiblets]

@NecessaryScene1

you have succeeded in making 'mother' into a gender-neutral word.

Indeed.

And then the next step is to make clear that "woman" is a gender-neutral word - it means "adult human female", and thus applies to Freddie McConnell, despite their "gender", and does not apply to Eddie Izzard, despite their "gender".

The thing is, you see, we are "gender critical" and hence want EVERYTHING to be gender-neutral. Gender is to be ignored. Sex, on the other hand...

Yes indeed. Double thumbs aloft here.

[AskingQuestionsAllTheTime]

yourhairiswinterfire
How are people this daft, honestly?

It takes years of dedication, and practice for at least three hours a day.

Or is that playing the violin?

Probably both.

[Nellodee]

I'm really confused by the focusing on bi to change to bisexual. Surely if you're bisexual, you could be attracted to multiple genders anyway? Are they going to require we change homosexual to homo? I can't see that going down too well.

[Erkrie]

Thanks for the link mad bad daddy. I see no evidence in the link to see that what you are suggesting is correct. Perhaps you would like to clarify in your own words what you think the danger is here, to help me understand what you mean.

[AskingQuestionsAllTheTime]

They don't want people to talk about bisexuals, or transsexuals, or use the word sex at all. I do actually foresee homosexual being shortened or changed to something else at some point, possibly quite soon, especially since they want it now to be deemed to be same-gender attraction and not same-sex attraction. See "cotton ceiling", which is said to be what is used to prevent male-bodied people from having penetrative sex with lesbians.

[merrymouse]

A "mother" doesn't always refer to a woman now, is what has happened.

It never did. 'Mother' has always had an additional linguistic sense of performing the role of being a mother, and anyone can do that. We talk about 'Mother Earth' or 'mother ship'. "Mother" is a male character in the avengers.

However, 'Mother' also has a specific legal sense and this is the sense that is used in maternity legislation.

In the case of Freddie MacConnell, the judge acknowledged in all possible ways that Freddie is a man, but it was beyond the court's powers to reflect that on the birth cert.

Not really. The judge recognised that Freddie MacConnell has an 'acquired sex', but although The GRA is very confused, it has never pretended to change anyone's biological sex, which is why there are exceptions for situations where sex is relevant. The point of the GRA is to preserve privacy. It can't change material reality.

I also believe this ruling has unintended consequences, such as handing some power to anti-abortion campaigners, and whilst many women feel they are mothers from the moment the test turns blue, many do not, and this ruling does them no favours.

You write as though this is all new to you. Women have always had a complicated relationship with pregnancy and the role of being a mother.

In reality very few people in the UK are completely anti-abortion and very few people are completely pro-abortion. The discussion, in this country at least, is about the middle ground.

Many pregnancies are unwanted, and many people who give birth do not want to be mothers. We still need clear language to describe the relationship of being a mother. The worst mother on the stately homes thread is still a mother.

[NecessaryScene1]

Not sure about Stonewall, but certainly other LGBTQetc orgs have declared "homosexual" to be outdated or excessively medical.

In get the impression that in US it's on the verge of being declared "offensive" right-wing terminology.

(Guess they haven't figured out how to say it gives power to anti-abortion campaigners. )

[MadBadDaddy]

@Erkrie

Thanks for the link mad bad daddy. I see no evidence in the link to see that what you are suggesting is correct. Perhaps you would like to clarify in your own words what you think the danger is here, to help me understand what you mean.

"Mother" is now the legal term for a pregnant woman (or man). It will therefore have implications when it is applied to surrogacy, miscarriage and abortion. Like I said, many choose to regard themselves as mothers in all these circumstances (and all power to them) but it has taken the choice away from those who very much do not want to be thought of as such until they have delivered a live baby.

Someone seeking an abortion for any reason will now be recorded as a "mother" whether they want to be or not, which is something anti-abortion campaigners are doubtless gleeful about.

Someone upthread said something about how we don't have US-style anti-abortion campaigners in the UK, but that is not true. Look up the "40 days for life" campaign of 'vigils' that is currently underway here. (can be reported for breaking lockdown, btw)

[viques]

@AskingQuestionsAllTheTime

They don't want people to talk about bisexuals, or transsexuals, or use the word sex at all. I do actually foresee homosexual being shortened or changed to something else at some point, possibly quite soon, especially since they want it now to be deemed to be same-gender attraction and not same-sex attraction. See "cotton ceiling", which is said to be what is used to prevent male-bodied people from having penetrative sex with lesbians.

“Cotton ceiling” ? Is this one of those ridiculous phrases like chest feeding that are supposed to make us believe the myth? I think what is stopping male bodied people having penetrative sex with lesbians is the fact that lesbians are not interested in having penetrative sex with male bodied people. Male bodied people who think they are lesbian , or attractive to lesbians , need a reality check, not a euphemism to hide behind .

[Erkrie]

It will therefore have implications when it is applied to surrogacy, miscarriage and abortion.

Why?

Someone seeking an abortion for any reason will now be recorded as a "mother" whether they want to be or not, which is something anti-abortion campaigners are doubtless gleeful about.

But why? It gives no power to their elbow. If you could explain what you mean by this it would be helpful.

[HoneysuckIejasmine]

MadBadDaddy I'm confused. This bill is purely about ministers taking maternity leave. I don't think it's changing the use of the word mother in all laws and therefore all implications. Can you explain how a bill specifically giving Ministers the right to take leave would lead to what you're suggesting?

[Loggerino]

Wow! This is amazing and fantastic news!

[merrymouse]

Someone seeking an abortion for any reason will now be recorded as a "mother" whether they want to be or not

I don't know how women seeking an abortion are currently recorded (as the patient?), but that won't be affected by the drafting of this bill. I think you are confused about the implications both of the drafting of this bill (relates to MATERNITY rights) and the implications of the court judgement in the Freddy McConnell case.

It will therefore have implications when it is applied to surrogacy

A Surrogate mother is already legally a mother. This is important to protect both the rights of the surrogate mother, and ensure that a child is not born without a legal parent.

[viques]

@AskingQuestionsAllTheTime

I suspect that if a pregnant Minister wants to claim maternity leave, which is what this is about, she probably isn't planning to have an abortion.

Agree. I think some people have completely misunderstood what the bill was for. The fact that the impressively serious and thoughtful debate about the bill in the HOL has revealed what how shallow, fatuous and based on rhetoric not science the Stonewall et al claims about gender are is a bonus that I hope will run and run and gather momentum.

[yourhairiswinterfire]

Someone seeking an abortion for any reason will now be recorded as a "mother" whether they want to be or not, which is something anti-abortion campaigners are doubtless gleeful about.

This is about a government maternity bill. It's about a minister being able to take maternity leave instead of being forced to resign. Maternity leave. Maternity leave applies to women, the female sex, who are well into their pregnancy. Women who aren't seeking an abortion.

Fgs, this is the ''Keira Bell has stopped girls being able to access contraception and abortions'' argument all over again, isn't it? 🤦‍♀️

[Datun]

@MadBadDaddy

Congratulations /s

The word 'mother' now applies to a parent legally recognised as a man (trans man), so you have succeeded in making 'mother' into a gender-neutral word.

It's always been gender neutral.

Dear me, you don't get this stuff at all.

It is, however, sex specific. Hence Freddie McConnell.

[NecessaryScene1]

Fgs, this is the ''Keira Bell has stopped girls being able to access contraception and abortions'' argument all over again, isn't it?

The US posters are obsessed with abortion. Threatening to take away abortion (or contraception) is a scare tactic they use to get US women to go along with anti-women measures.

But, like the Christian right stuff, it just makes them look a bit Naomi Wolf to people in the UK, seeing as we don't have a Christian right and our abortion and contraceptive rights are secure.

[Datun]

The US posters are obsessed with abortion. Threatening to take away abortion (or contraception) is a scare tactic they use to get US women to go along with anti-women measures.

And, of course, the Keira bell judges upheld the Gillick competence protocols for abortion.

These posters seem to know fuck all about fuck nothing. No wonder they cant string an argument together.

[AskingQuestionsAllTheTime]

viques
“Cotton ceiling” ? Is this one of those ridiculous phrases like chest feeding that are supposed to make us believe the myth? I think what is stopping male bodied people having penetrative sex with lesbians is the fact that lesbians are not interested in having penetrative sex with male bodied people. Male bodied people who think they are lesbian , or attractive to lesbians , need a reality check, not a euphemism to hide behind.

You've got it. In effect, it's a way to express the idea that lesbians are bigots if they don't want to have penetrative sex with a transwoman, rather than just not choosing to have penetrative sex with a particular individual on any particular occasion and for any reason whatever or none at all, which is the right of any woman in this country -- ignoring her stated wishes is rape, and is illegal.

[HermitsLife]

@Quadzilla

I did post this on the Stonewall/FOI so apologies if you’ve seen it already. This extract below is from the annual feedback from Stonewall to my Council in March 2020. I think it’s very clear how we’ve ended up where we are if this is being pushed into every single Stonewall Champion.

“Feedback from your marker 1.2.Clearer zero tolerance to discrimination on basis of sexual orientation and gender identity required and needed explicit mention of biphobic bullying and harrassment. "Gender reassignment" is the legal term used in equalities legislation. However, it's a contentious term that Stonewall's Trans Advisory Group feels should be reviewed - it's advisable to use other terms, e.g. "transition". We recommend using the term "bi" rather than "bisexual". Bi is an umbrella term used to describe an emotional, romantic and/or sexual orientation towards more than one gender. 1.3.Some good use of gender-neutral language, particularly in adoption policy. However, these policies needed better clarity of access for same-sex couples and explicitly trans-inclusive language when referring to parents. Remove the terms "mother" and "father", to ensure that everyone within your organisation is covered by your policies. We"d recommend using gender neutral language, e.g. "pregnant employee"; "birth parent" and then "second parent"; "parent who has given birth" or "new mothers and other pregnant employees". See Stonewall"s inclusive policy toolkit. 1.4. Whilst 'transexual' is still used by some members of the trans community, it's considered outdated and should never be used in place of "trans" or to refer to individuals/communities that do not explicitly self-determine as "transexual".

Not read the whole thread yet, but just got to this and thought Holy Fuck!!!

This scares the shit out of me. It needs sunlight and lots of it

[CoffeeTeaChocolate]

We have to be very careful when discussing the “cotton ceiling” on this board though. Once a lesbian poster was deleted due to this discussion.

One sensitive poster thought that a specific penis was rejected and reported the post. Luckily the lesbian poster got a another chance and was able to state that she rejected all penis and that it wasn’t aimed at any particular penis.

[Nellodee]

I believe the bill referred to mothers and expectant mothers. I do not think someone who is planning to have an abortion can be described as an expectant mother. I am not certain (and I sound sarcastic here, but I'm not actually trying to be), but isn't expectant mother about having the expectation to be a mother?

[NiceGerbil]

From that Twitter link

'Mother" is a term used for pregnant people by anti-choice activists and is a regressive step.'

That is the most arse about face statement I've heard in a while