History in the making! Watch Parliament Live at 2.30pm!

[Sunkisses]

According to @SexMattersOrg on Twitter the Govt have backed down on the MOMA (Maternity) Bill and will now use the word 'mother' not 'person' in the legislation!

Women did this! We are winning!

Tune in live here at 2.30pm to see history in the making: www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/3ca1efa2-16a5-489d-a5a0-5d929bff81f6

Yes. And women are asking for language not to be bastardised to fit an ideology. Women have not asked for a language change.

And I still don't get what your point is?

It's a maternity bill. It references mothers.

People! Well, lets see, real life examples of the issue with such changes abound, usually when trying to say things like "All people need to get a smear test" and "All men need to have a prostate exam"

Or the mangling of statistics when 50% of the 'people' can't be affected by the issue, making the statistics meaningless. e.g. 40% of people or 80% of women. And yes, real statistics referenced here regualrly - read round!

@DisgustedofManchester

So the act now says that its not pregnant people but 'mothers'? Sounds like a win for the Chirstian Right pro lifers. I thought you became a mother when yo gave birth, not before.

My son died four minutes before he was born. Wasn’t I his mother?

The Act now says mothers and expectant mothers, you know the only ones who need maternity rights, the clue is in the word maternity.

does not counter my point regarding the bill

And what point would that be?

If someone is described an expectant mother in this bill, that presumably means that this bill recognises she is a mother during gestation as well as postpartum.

So the act now says that its not pregnant people but 'mothers'? Sounds like a win for the Chirstian Right pro lifers. I thought you became a mother when yo gave birth, not before.

Perhaps there is some reason you wish to argue with women as to when and how they can call themselves mothers or even women? I think women have a clear understanding of what the terms mean, having been referring to ourselves as these terms for centuries in the English language.

Tell us again why others should have the right to take our word’s meanings from us? And how does it benefit women having the term mother defined by people who have no lived experience?

So the act now says that its not pregnant people but 'mothers'? Sounds like a win for the Chirstian Right pro lifers. I thought you became a mother when yo gave birth, not before.

Risible nonsense. The bill says expectant mother and mother.

What's an expectant person?

Hint: Me on my birthday.

Still, it's very useful for everyone, including lurkers, to see these constant examples of wanting to eliminate women as a biological sex.

It's the first thing that people are starting to ask. Does this (comment, law, tenet, request, demand) eliminate women as a biological sex?

Very useful to see where the common denominator lies.

Tell us again why others should have the right to take our word’s meanings from us? And how does it benefit women having the term mother defined by people who have no lived experience?

Probably something along the lines of misrepresentation, defamation, if Cashman is anything to go by but mostly I reckon it's just hurty feelings, big meanies and more sinisterly and accurately women are not allowed these words because we don't want them to have them Winesalot, got to get the old pro-life Christian/alt-right (delete as appropriate) crap in there for effect though.

@DisgustedofManchester

So the act now says that its not pregnant people but 'mothers'? Sounds like a win for the Chirstian Right pro lifers. I thought you became a mother when yo gave birth, not before.

It is a ‘maternity bill’ passed in a country that recognises maternity rights, does not have a ‘Christian right’ and where abortion is not a political issue.

If your understanding of human rights legislation is US based, I can understand why you might be confused about women’s rights. It really is a very regressive country.

So the act now says that its not pregnant people but 'mothers'? Sounds like a win for the Chirstian Right pro lifers. I thought you became a mother when yo gave birth, not before.

Maternity from the Latin, Mater meaning Mother.

Maternity extends from carrying a child in your womb. How dare you state that a woman is not a mother until she gives birth!

There are many women who have lost babies at all stages of pregnancy, including myself. I have heard women sobbing and screaming because they had just been told they lost a baby. It doesn't make them any less mother's. Your comment is fucking insensitive and crass.

Also why are you so obsessed by the far right and Christians? Are Christians not allowed opinions now? Are people on the right not allowed opinions either? Must everyone subscribe to your ideals and yours alone?

There are lots of women here who are left, right and central. Guess what people can agree on other peoples opinions. It's called being human. Not everything is drawn on political lines.

Aren't we awful, centering women on a thread about centering women. The cunty types, I mean.

I assumed it was Manchester in the UK. I guess it's actually one of the US ones. Woeful misrepresentation.

Could be Manchester U.K., but stuck in a US social media bubble.

*What's an expectant person?

Hint: Me on my birthday.*

I spluttered my drink!

RedDog my post is yet another way women’s language is contorted to fit other’s agenda. We resorted to using ambiguity as our language get narrower and narrower, and much less direct. I am sure that that doesn’t register with some posters.

@DisgustedofManchester

The whole argument is about language. If trans men did not exist then would people even be having this conversation? Arguing personal positions and experiences does not counter my point regarding the bill.

People objected to the word 'people'.

If nobody were trying to create taboos around the use of sex based language, we wouldn’t be having this conversation.

Women need specific rights because of the clear, unavoidable consequences of sex. This has nothing whatsoever to do with identity.

Could be Manchester U.K., but stuck in a US social media bubble.

Dunno - US-soaked UK folks normally stop at "alt-right" like Baroness Barker.

No UK person could say anything about the "Christian right" with a straight face, at least referring to anything happening in the UK. Surely?

@NecessaryScene1

Could be Manchester U.K., but stuck in a US social media bubble.

Dunno - US-soaked UK folks normally stop at "alt-right" like Baroness Barker.

No UK person could say anything about the "Christian right" with a straight face, at least referring to anything happening in the UK. Surely?

I can imagine that if you are very young and get all of your information from twitter, you might find it difficult to distinguish between the two. For the last 4 -5 years American politics have dominated the media. An interesting discussion, but maybe for another thread?!

Payfrozen

What a fantastic post. Thankyou.

@Winesalot

RedDog my post is yet another way women’s language is contorted to fit other’s agenda. We resorted to using ambiguity as our language get narrower and narrower, and much less direct. I am sure that that doesn’t register with some posters.

I know Winesalot, I am so bloody fed up with contorting my language for people who don't give two fucks for women on the basis of their delicate feelings whilst they throw out the most hideous slurs and threats. It's obscene and it needs to stop.

For the last 4 -5 years American politics have dominated the media. An interesting discussion, but maybe for another thread?

Definitely

"Christian right, pro-lifer"

Nope. Very much a lapsed Catholic, pro-choice, centre left, who recognises biology and women's rights. The most extreme thing about me is my home cooked Vindaloo

Thank you to Ninkanink and andyoldlabour for the positive feedback about my previous post.

I mostly lurk and learn but sometimes get the urge to splurge. Sadly I’m a bit reluctant to chat frequently in case I say something identifying and it causes me trouble at work.

I have lots of “be nice and share” colleagues but have 2 friends who work in services for women and children who agree with me. The relief we felt when we first had whispered conversations in the corners of a room!

I have great admiration for people on this board that are holding the line in public or don’t know anybody in real life that the can talk to. for you.

I did post this on the Stonewall/FOI so apologies if you’ve seen it already. This extract below is from the annual feedback from Stonewall to my Council in March 2020. I think it’s very clear how we’ve ended up where we are if this is being pushed into every single Stonewall Champion.

“Feedback from your marker 1.2.Clearer zero tolerance to discrimination on basis of sexual orientation and gender identity required and needed explicit mention of biphobic bullying and harrassment. "Gender reassignment" is the legal term used in equalities legislation. However, it's a contentious term that Stonewall's Trans Advisory Group feels should be reviewed - it's advisable to use other terms, e.g. "transition". We recommend using the term "bi" rather than "bisexual". Bi is an umbrella term used to describe an emotional, romantic and/or sexual orientation towards more than one gender. 1.3.Some good use of gender-neutral language, particularly in adoption policy. However, these policies needed better clarity of access for same-sex couples and explicitly trans-inclusive language when referring to parents. Remove the terms "mother" and "father", to ensure that everyone within your organisation is covered by your policies. We"d recommend using gender neutral language, e.g. "pregnant employee"; "birth parent" and then "second parent"; "parent who has given birth" or "new mothers and other pregnant employees". See Stonewall"s inclusive policy toolkit. 1.4. Whilst 'transexual' is still used by some members of the trans community, it's considered outdated and should never be used in place of "trans" or to refer to individuals/communities that do not explicitly self-determine as "transexual".

Remove the terms "mother" and "father"