Have things gone too far?

[Okbussitout]

I saw a tiktok comment thread saying that if you wouldn't have sex with a trans person you're transphobic. My thinking on this is sexuality is quite complex. But for example I've had gay friends say to me they feel really grossed out by the opposite sex genitals) both gay men and women) so if someone has a penis but presents as a woman (this isn't an argument about passing) then it's transphobic not to be attracted to them because they have genitals of the opposite sex that you are attracted to. Primarily I'd say I'm straight and a big part of that is my enjoyment of my partner's penis. (sorry that statement is tmi and redic to type)

This got me thinking about gc argument on here. For the first time I was thinking this doesn't make logical sense. You can dress how you want, call yourself what you want, use the spaces you want, as actually I don't think most trans people are a threat. I'm happy for trans women to be women. But I feel trying to dictate who people have sex is too much.

I'm sort of musing, but also wonder if actually on both sides there is such adversity that there's no going back? With increasingly wild arguments on both sides. So how would there be a way forward from here?

I'm wondering if trans people are angry because they feel their bodies don't match their gender in their head. I've had on and of mental health issues so can imagine this feels awful. I'm also fat so know what it's like to be discriminated against. Maybe gc women are angry because they already feel ver discriminated against and are now told the rights we have are not needed. So yeah I just wonder if this debate is at a point with no way forward reasonable way forward. I'd like to know people's views on this.

Is it good that more young people are happy to play with gender boxes and be 'queer'?

I think it's exciting, I don't think it's perfect but the next step forward, and I was really referring to sexuality rather than gender and thinking of the poll released yesterday that showed 16% of Gen Z's identifying as LGBT - and most of that was LGB: news.gallup.com/poll/329708/lgbt-identification-rises-latest-estimate.aspx

Anyway, I'm really fucking knackered now. I don't know if this has been a positive exchange or not. I suspect that neither of us has moved in essentials, but at least there were jokes.

Off to bed too, maybe jokes are progress, appreciating you taking the time to answer.

Where do you draw the line between playing with gender boxes and puberty blockers, cross sex hormones, mutilating surgery? For children in particular?

Obviously trans people feckin' exist. Jaysus.

Well, there's an appropriate line. I've literally just come here from twitter, where the Oreo cookie company have announced tonight that Trans people exist.

Is there anyone who thinks they don't? I'd appreciate it more if Oreo could devote this same energy to asserting the existence of dinosaur fossils or indeed evolution itself. That would be useful.

I'm not sure that's all that some of the GC crowd want, I think some of the crowd want trans people gone - not murdered in ours beds gone - but just pushed back into the margins and stigmatised much like we have been historically. I'm not even saying that's most people, but they are there, and certainly those who some in the GC movement have chosen to align with want that. In fact some of them probably would quite like us to be murdered in our beds.

I have no issue with the people pottering around our local town or living locally to me and joining the pub quiz etc (I have no idea how they identify because I haven't asked but their clothes suggest that they identify as women in some capacity and most had a wife and children that they no longer live with - I know three personally). All absolutely fine, live and let live - I say hello to them when we pass on the street (everyone says hello to everyone around here)

Those nearest to me also know that they were born male and use the appropriate facilities. Again, super job, everyone's happy. As many men have said, they have no issue with someone either female or presenting as female in the men's facilities.

I sat up and took note when I realised that single sex spaces and facilities for women were being undermined and removed, our very definitions and our protections against discrimination were being eroded.

That is my line and my boundary and that is why I am doing everything I can to prevent the safeguarding for women and children being removed.

I don't know why you keep trying to suggest violence and murderous thoughts from women against trans people jj - I don't know a single woman who would ever have considered that even for a second.

That is not how the vast majority of women's minds work, although there are exceptions to everything and I have seen a woman wishing an early death on the peers in the House of Lords but she is on your side - not GC .

Hyperbole over 'what the GC crowd want' doesn't help here, nor does denying women's lived experiences of being treated badly by TRAs. Empathy towards women and humour does, though. Things to be nurtured.

jj I kind of like the positivity, but on the other hand I can't share it.

In no particular order...

It's an open secret, I think we know, about the treatment of gay men in Iran. Highest rate of SRS in the world and they're not all consenting. Far from it.

I know you have concerns that feminists are working with the worst kind of religious bigot, but it kind of looks like the trans rights movement did, from over here.

It's always been stark raving obvious that just as in Iran, a certain kind of family in the West was going to find it easier to think that God had accidentally put a pink soul in a boy's body than accept that their son wasn't stereotypically masculine and/or was gay. I mean. Come on. I wasn't born yesterday. I cannot understand why they think this, but I also believe evolution should be taught in schools, so no meeting of minds between me and them is likely.

Until a few years ago, I also thought it was stark raving obvious that such parents would be bounced right out of a children's GID clinic. (In retrospect, perhaps my confidence about that shows that I was born the day before yesterday.)

Evidence since presented has made me feel much less certain that such families are bounced out of clinics, and I can't understand why so many people have reacted to the same evidence by shouting abuse.

So it makes me feel a bit bemused when it's said on twitter etc that GC feminists are involved with the religious right, by the same people who also shout abuse at people raising safeguarding concerns about children's GID clinics. I think, "but, but you're ignoring concerns that parents with significant religiously-motivated homophobia are pushing their children to transition! You're in bed with the homophobic religious right!"

I'm not sure that's all that some of the GC crowd want, I think some of the crowd want trans people gone - not murdered in ours beds gone - but just pushed back into the margins and stigmatised much like we have been historically. I'm not even saying that's most people, but they are there, and certainly those who some in the GC movement have chosen to align with want that. In fact some of them probably would quite like us to be murdered in our beds.

@jj1968 I have never come across a GC person who thinks or feels like this. Never. This is pure projection, because you feel your beliefs are being attacked and you don't like it. It also conveniently ignores all the threats of violence and annihilation coming from your 'side'. The constant 'kill all terfs' rhetoric, effigies of hung women in Spanish squares, pictures of people in blooded T-shirts wielding knives and baseball bats saying they're going terf-hunting. You know exactly what I'm talking about.

OP, I'm sorry that earlier in the thread you felt people were being awful. I'd ask you to bear in mind that many of the women - and some men - responding to your post have been tirelessly trying to push back on some of the worst excesses of this gender ideology for years. They're constantly under attack, here and on Twitter and other spaces for trying to get women's voices heard.

There are certain members of this community who come on to every thread where women are asking for information on the GC position and just take up all the space with endless questions and arguments that have been answered a thousand times, often with incontrovertible evidence that they then go on to ignore. It's hard not to draw the conclusion in the end that they do it purely to disrupt.

So sometimes we can come across as quite forthright, but I hope you'll make allowances for all the reasons given above. These are good people fighting an unequal fight against one of the mostly deeply misogynistic movements in history.

Thank you Rufus. Is that a cupcake?

Tis indeed, I thought I’d hedge my bets 😀

I just really want a cake for breakfast now!

I've been thinking about the question about a male seed person showering in a communal area with girls. And pp talking about a penis as a weapon. But then nudity in itself isn't actually a threat. But do we need to regulate on the balance of probability and what if? So I'm not sure on my answer.

Breakfast is the best time to eat cake - all that sugar hitting an empty stomach, Mmm.

Just also a thought. I'm 35 I feel that my need for feminism and women's rights has probably increased as I've aged. How many people who don't see the need for sex based rights are pretty young so haven't had say the experiences around maternity or unfair treatment in the workplace?

I don't mean that to be patronising as when I was in my early 20s I was involved in a few political groups and my views haven't changes much on those issue. (war and anti capitalism) but unfortunately spending time in the world as a woman has meant I've seen the myriad of ways things can suck for us and why this needs to legislated against. I've always been a feminist since a teen! But the more you experience it does add to your feelings about inequality.

More just musing I suppose.

I've been thinking about the question about a male seed person showering in a communal area with girls. And pp talking about a penis as a weapon. But then nudity in itself isn't actually a threat. But do we need to regulate on the balance of probability and what if? So I'm not sure on my answer.

An interesting thought Okbuss. Remember that indecent exposure is an offence. Some male people like exposing their genitals to women and young girls (it’s happened to me at least twice). How do we determine which naked men will get a kick out of exposing themselves in a communal changing room full of teenage girls? (Btw I am not accusing all TW of being predators, I believe that most aren’t - but we have huge evidence to show that some are)

The overwhelming majority of sexual assaults (inc rape, voyeurism, flashing, indecent assault, upskirting, assault by penetration, incitement of sexual activity in a child under 13 etc etc) are carried out by people of the male sex (approx 95%).

Given that no threshold for ‘transition’ is required in the proposal to allow male people to choose to use the female single sex facilities, how do you think that we will ‘weed out’ the predatory males? Some TW choose ‘not to transition their appearance’ (eg Danielle Muscato) so appear fully male. What possible reason could they have for using women’s facilities? There are people that identify as a woman on a part time basis, yet claim a right to use the ladies toilets - why would they do this?

To those who say ‘well, predators could walk in anyway - a door isn’t going to stop them’. Well yes, that does happen, but currently we have a long held social contract that NO MALES can enter the ladies facilities so we can make the safe assumption that any male in the ladies shouldn’t be there and appropriate action can be taken.

The proposal is that now, any male person can, by the act of walking into the ladies toilets, is declaring themselves to be a woman and has every right to be there (self id).

So in a shopping centre, the staff member that sees a young girl go into the ladies on their own who is then followed by a man has now been instructed to ignore that. If they don’t ignore that and challenge the man they run the risk of being accused of transphobia and losing their job. (This has happened irl).
Do you think that sounds safe for that little girl? (A similar situation occurs a Morrison’s- search Katie Dolotowski to see how badly wrong this can end up - a 10 yo girl was sexually assaulted at knifepoint in the look ashes because an 18 yo convicted sex offender was allowed to go into the ladies by the social worker escorting Katie because Katie identified as female.

Certain people who are keen in this type of undermining of safeguarding claim ‘well it was only one incident’ and ‘there’s always going to be bad things happening’ but the point is that normally society would be trying to prevent that sort of horrific and entirely preventable attack on a little girl.

Instead, the Scottish government are putting laws in place to make further attacks easier

Do you think that sounds right?

Who benefits here?

Why can’t TW use the facilities of their sex? What evidence is there that they are in any more danger than any other vulnerable male group?

It's always been stark raving obvious that just as in Iran, a certain kind of family in the West was going to find it easier to think that God had accidentally put a pink soul in a boy's body than accept that their son wasn't stereotypically masculine and/or was gay. I mean. Come on. I wasn't born yesterday. I cannot understand why they think this, but I also believe evolution should be taught in schools, so no meeting of minds between me and them is likely.

Evolution is far more accepted within Islam than within Christianity so it's quite likely they do teach it in schools in Iran.

The situation for trans people in Iran is dire. Trans people of any description are expected to immediately present for treatment and must undergo full medical treatment including surgery or fall foul of the laws prohibiting cross dressing and homosexuality - which could, in extremis, mean the death penalty.

Western trans activism had nothing to do wth this policy and do not support it. It began because in 1987 trans women Maryam Molkara managed to break into Ayatollah Khomeini's compound and after enduring a savage beating from the guards managed to gain an audience with the Ayatollah himself. During this meeting she managed to persuade him to grant a Fatwa for her to have gender reassignment surgery, largely on the basis that it's not something that's actually forbidden in the Qur'an. This religious ruling paved the way for Iranian trans people to be able to gain surgery - although this is governed by religious law not civil law.

It was never intended that this Fatwa be used to convert homosexuals, and in fact a process known as 'filtering' is specifically employed to try and weed them out - essentially transsexual people are seen as ill somehow and can be cured whilst gay and lesbian people are deviants who must be punished. It is not acceptable under current religious law for someone who is gay or lesbian to transition out of it - although it's near certain that local religious leaders and families have at times pressurised gay and lesbian people to attempt it.

Whilst post transition trans people are legally recognised in their aquired sex, including being able to marry, in reality they often face persecution and oppression with many ending up as survival sex workers. And of course they may still face persecution on the grounds of their sexuality - a trans man in a relationship with a man or a trans woman with a woman would fall foul of religious laws forbidding homosexuality. So it's pretty shit all round as it goes and not something any trans person would really want to emulate anywhere else.

Remember that indecent exposure is an offence. Some male people like exposing their genitals to women and young girls (it’s happened to me at least twice). How do we determine which naked men will get a kick out of exposing themselves in a communal changing room full of teenage girls? (Btw I am not accusing all TW of being predators, I believe that most aren’t - but we have huge evidence to show that some are

Yes the reason why it's ok for one group of males to potentially be naked with women and not others is totally illogical.
As to the prevalence of this particular sexual misconduct , I would reckon from my own experience that it is relatively common ( Starting at the age of 11 and numerous other incidents after that)

That's a pretty shitty state of affairs in Iran, JJ. Massive problems with homophobia there.

In Iran a woman's life is worth half man's, so pretty shitty all round unless you happen to be a man. Then life's a bit peachier.

Do you happen to know if transmen are considered worth 'more' and given more freedom after transition or do they remain at the bottom of the pile? Just curious as to whether women there could identify into a more privileged position, as things are pretty restrictive there.
And, no, definitely not something we'd want to emulate in either case.

Do you happen to know if transmen are considered worth 'more' and given more freedom after transition or do they remain at the bottom of the pile? Just curious as to whether women there could identify into a more privileged position, as things are pretty restrictive there.

In theory they are men and could marry women and would be treated as men in law. There is quite a famous Iranian actor who's a trans man. In practice though I suspect a lot of trans men aren't so lucky. From what I've read at least it seems to be very divided with some very traditional religious communities and a younger more secular urban population pushing for reform so I imagine how someone is treated is where they end up. There's an article here about honour killings of both trans men and trans women (and which briefly discusses the wider situation for trans men) which shows in some parts of Iran there's a very long way to go: iranwire.com/en/features/7398

I think people have the right to fancy who they like . I don’t think I would find a trans man attractive . I don’t even think I like the idea, it would put me off sexually . The few trans men I know still appear feminine, which puts me off . That’s ok . We don’t all have to fancy everyone . We can still respect others .

I don't know why you keep trying to suggest violence and murderous thoughts from women against trans people jj - I don't know a single woman who would ever have considered that even for a second

Absolutely! the very thought or sentiment would be alien to most people; certainly here.

What most have an issue with is the positing of an internal feeling as, somehow, some kind of marker that exists in objective reality:that it might mean something substantial beyond the person feeling it.

Internal feelings and identifications are one thing. We all have them and they shift and change with time. But the idea that an ephemeral identity is a fixed marker of reality is something altogether different.

In theory they are men and could marry women and would be treated as men in law

In theory.....do you have any evidence of this in practice?

Jesus that's grim and very sad.

@Justhadathought

In theory they are men and could marry women and would be treated as men in law

In theory.....do you have any evidence of this in practice?

Yes you can read some interviews here: www.researchgate.net/publication/334375216_Are_trans_men_the_manliest_of_men_Gender_practices_trans_masculinity_and_mardanegi_in_contemporary_Iran

Those who have been operated on to become men are 100 times manlier than a natural man because they have honor [ghyrat] and responsibility . . . Going through the surgery proves it. People of my type should regard themselves as complete men. I am married, have a job, and pay for my wife . .. I have told my wife, like a man, that I will make her happy. I am putting double energy to prove myself to her, to my family, and to society. We [trans men] have responsibilities and ghyrat for our families and wives because we see ourselves as
the providers. I am a feminist, but a woman is a woman. Believe me

People of my type should regard themselves as complete men. I am married, have a job, and pay for my wife . .. I have told my wife, like a man, that I will make her happy. I am putting double energy to prove myself to her, to my family, and to society. We [trans men] have responsibilities and ghyrat for our families and wives because we see ourselves as the providers. I am a feminist, but a woman is a woman. Believe me

Thanks!

Rather a lot of gender stereotyping going on there, though. Role playing. Obviously there will not be any children?

Why would a heterosexual woman in Iran marry a 'man' with whom there was no possibility of children? Lesbian?

Rather a lot of gender stereotyping going on there, though. Role playing.

I think most trans people are probably too terrifed to do anything else, and so a lot of what they say and do needs to be seen as stringly influenced by a potentially very violent regime. There was an interesting documentary on trans women in Iran on the beeb a few years ago which is worth tracking down if you're interested. One of the more depressing bits was when they asked them about gay men and they were desperate to put as much distance between them as possible, basically towing the state's line that they were deviants. You could see in their eyes they didn't mean it - there has been a thriving underground LGBT scene in Tehran for a long time which they may well have been part of - but they were just too scared to say anything else because they know how precarious ther own position is.

Rather a lot of gender stereotyping going on there, though.

I find it interesting that there is always a lot of gender stereotyping in the stories of trans people. This is from another of jj's links:

“I knew from the age of seven that I was different from the boys next door and from my friends and other people I knew. I wanted to have long hair like my sister. And varnish my nails. I wanted to put on her clothes and hug her beautiful doll that my father had brought for her from a trip to France. But my father's threats and reprimands and discussions with my mother and their emphasis on me being a boy tore apart all my dreams."

Would trans people even exist if there were no gender stereotypes?