Have things gone too far?

[Okbussitout]

I saw a tiktok comment thread saying that if you wouldn't have sex with a trans person you're transphobic. My thinking on this is sexuality is quite complex. But for example I've had gay friends say to me they feel really grossed out by the opposite sex genitals) both gay men and women) so if someone has a penis but presents as a woman (this isn't an argument about passing) then it's transphobic not to be attracted to them because they have genitals of the opposite sex that you are attracted to. Primarily I'd say I'm straight and a big part of that is my enjoyment of my partner's penis. (sorry that statement is tmi and redic to type)

This got me thinking about gc argument on here. For the first time I was thinking this doesn't make logical sense. You can dress how you want, call yourself what you want, use the spaces you want, as actually I don't think most trans people are a threat. I'm happy for trans women to be women. But I feel trying to dictate who people have sex is too much.

I'm sort of musing, but also wonder if actually on both sides there is such adversity that there's no going back? With increasingly wild arguments on both sides. So how would there be a way forward from here?

I'm wondering if trans people are angry because they feel their bodies don't match their gender in their head. I've had on and of mental health issues so can imagine this feels awful. I'm also fat so know what it's like to be discriminated against. Maybe gc women are angry because they already feel ver discriminated against and are now told the rights we have are not needed. So yeah I just wonder if this debate is at a point with no way forward reasonable way forward. I'd like to know people's views on this.

The Equality Act does know what a woman is :an adult human female or child. As transwomen are all male they do not form part of that group. Therefore transwomen cannot be lesbians as lesbians are women attracted to other women.

The sexual violence and harassment trans women receive comes near exclusively from straight men

Which every woman posting on this board to keep their single sex provision has confirmed and reaffirmed repeatedly. And given that a male who identifies as a lesbian woman is a heterosexual male by very definition (MNHQ, I am using this language because there is literally no other way to explain this, not to be offensive, so please can any complaints be taken in light of that?) why do women have to lose their single sex provision because of the predatory behaviour of heterosexual males?
It is entirely incoherent.

@jj1968

If you truly believe that TWAW OP, and you believe that heterosexual men are sexually attracted to women, then by default you beleive that heterosexual men are sexually attracted to TW.

Only many aren't are they, in reality.

I kind of wish they weren't sometimes but many are. It's not gay men keeping the massive trans sex industry afloat.

A small percentage perhaps. And whether heterosexual would be an accurate descriptor in those cases is debatable, as the content of this thread proves.

The 'many' are busy keeping the significantly more prolific heterosexual sex industry going.

@Datun

What do you think you're achieving on here, JJ? I've never seen you persuade anyone. All you do is give women endless opportunities to refute your daft arguments. Is that what you set out to do?

You think I'm enjoying it? The management of the international trans conspiracy put me on mumsnet duty for a year after I got demoted for misgendering a furry. I was supposed to be spiking Covid vaccines with estrogen by now.

I've said many times Datun that I post here because I think it's good to counter some of the things said here which are often incorrect and as such are harmful to trans people.

Oh look JJ is signalling for a test case to prove that men can be considered lesbians. I think when the couple showed up at the b and b, they would know that the couple werent lesbians , no matter how they identify.

@Flapjak

Oh look JJ is signalling for a test case to prove that men can be considered lesbians. I think when the couple showed up at the b and b, they would know that the couple werent lesbians , no matter how they identify.

No, I was just pointing out the reality of how the Equality Act works. It wouldn't be a test case, the law is very straight forward. A similar example would be if two straight women holding hands were denied access to a club because the door-staff thought they were lesbians. The act is all about perception.

I watched that video. Sorry to hear this woman died at a young age. She did have a dry funny delivery style. I feel that the person she was responding to did have a pretty crappy argument. Especially when saying just don't talk about it!

I feel though I need to think about this sits with still feeling that trans women can use she / her pronouns and exist in the world.

@Datun

What do you think you're achieving on here, JJ? I've never seen you persuade anyone. All you do is give women endless opportunities to refute your daft arguments. Is that what you set out to do?

I thought this was a discussion board? Does it always have to be about persuading people? It's about discussing things, or trying to. Sometimes it's just about getting your point of view our there.

If you truly believe that TWAW OP, and you believe that heterosexual men are sexually attracted to women, then by default you beleive that heterosexual men are sexually attracted to TW.

If you truly believe that hideous rapists are men, and you believe that heterosexual women are sexually attracted to men, then by default you believe that heterosexual women are sexually attracted to hideous rapists.

This is how bad your logic is, jj. And it's not just in this particular instance. A large proportion of your reasoning is of this level.

I thought this was a discussion board? Does it always have to be about persuading people?

God no. But I was talking about achievements.

"exist in the world."
Can we cut the melodrama, as today's episode in the house of lords shows, we know they exist. They are quite vocal, visual and highly represented, despite being supposedly a small section of society.

Whereas women's 'right to exist' actually is under attack.

I mean, if actual biological women can't name themselves, surely that's a threat to existence.
If lesbians can't define themselves, have their own spaces surely their existence and visibility is at risk of ceasing to exist.

The discrimination in the act can be about perception. But the protected characteristics are not defined via perception. Sexual orientation is defined as

(1)Sexual orientation means a person's sexual orientation towards—
(a)persons of the same sex,
(b)persons of the opposite sex, or
(c)persons of either sex.

Sex is defined as;
In relation to the protected characteristic of sex—
(a)a reference to a person who has a particular protected characteristic is a reference to a man or to a woman
(b)a reference to persons who share a protected characteristic is a reference to persons of the same sex.

These are factual descriptions of both sex and sexual orientation. Discrimination claims can indeed be based on erroneous perceptions. However, the definitions in law are not.

To be honest, it's quite exhausting at times watching people take the time to reasonably refute your atrociously weak arguments. There was a thread that talked about the mental drain of having to continually challenge falsely constructed realities, and I feel that is your purpose on these boards - to mentally drain those who patiently refute your nonsense.

@Datun

I thought this was a discussion board? Does it always have to be about persuading people?

God no. But I was talking about achievements.

Ok, but maybe the poster is just putting their view out there, having a discussion, what if that is what they are trying to achieve? Is that wrong?

You think I'm enjoying it? The management of the international trans conspiracy put me on mumsnet duty for a year after I got demoted for misgendering a furry. I was supposed to be spiking Covid vaccines with estrogen by now.

This is the most normal, mumsnetty post I've ever seen you make.

I think you're getting assimilated.

@Nellodee

To be honest, it's quite exhausting at times watching people take the time to reasonably refute your atrociously weak arguments. There was a thread that talked about the mental drain of having to continually challenge falsely constructed realities, and I feel that is your purpose on these boards - to mentally drain those who patiently refute your nonsense.

So you'd rather just have boards where everyone agrees all the time?

@PotholeParadies

You think I'm enjoying it? The management of the international trans conspiracy put me on mumsnet duty for a year after I got demoted for misgendering a furry. I was supposed to be spiking Covid vaccines with estrogen by now.

This is the most normal, mumsnetty post I've ever seen you make.

I think you're getting assimilated.

I liked it

I like funny

@Okbussitout

I watched that video. Sorry to hear this woman died at a young age. She did have a dry funny delivery style. I feel that the person she was responding to did have a pretty crappy argument. Especially when saying just don't talk about it!

I feel though I need to think about this sits with still feeling that trans women can use she / her pronouns and exist in the world.

Sure, work it through. Every woman who posts here regularly has had to do that. And not every woman here is in lockstep agreement with each other. Barracker makes an excellent case why using correct sex pronouns is really important because of how it shifts what you are willing to put up with. Personally, I will mostly use neutral pronouns on here, correct sex in most other places, but may well use courtesy pronouns in a face to face situation depending on different factors. I'll always use a preferred name, too.

I think the key for me was getting a hold of not being to consent for others. So you might not mind the male in the female changing rooms, but you are not the only woman there, so you cannot consent for them too. That can sometimes make things clearer when you are wrestling with competing claims.

So you'd rather just have boards where everyone agrees all the time?

Strawman. I'd rather we didn't need this board in its current form at all, to be quite honest.

Me too, Rufus. The International Trans Conspiracy will probably rotate jj off mumsnet duty after that.

Yes, it tickled me too.

Spiking Covid vaccines with oestrogen was tres droll. Not heard of that one. I think your position as sharpest wit on the board is safe, though, Rufus.

@BuntingEllacott

Spiking Covid vaccines with oestrogen was tres droll. Not heard of that one. I think your position as sharpest wit on the board is safe, though, Rufus.

I liked the misgendering furries bit the best but i did like the spiking covid bit as well 😀

It was all funny

I do believe that jj may well be posting in good faith. I think for jj the idea that transwomen are women is personally very important and to convince women to accept transwomen as women is vital. Unfortunately to be truly accepted as women , transwomen must be included wherever women are and this is where the problems start , as transwomen are male and like all other males present a real and present danger to women. This does not mean that all males( transwomen and men) are predators but enough are to be a threat. My own son finds it personally offensive that men are considered in this light but he accepts that some males are predators. So he makes a special effort not to make women uncomfortable, (he will cross streets at night to avoid following a lone female ) and I would guess that many men will modify their behaviour to be less threatening..
Transwomen are personally offended that women might see them as predators because some of them are. However, their need to be accepted into female spaces means that they must deny that they might be a danger to women. They must at all cost deny all the evidence that shows transwomen are no different to other men in patterns of criminality. They must convince everybody that they are no more dangerous to women than any other " women " , hence the constant " lesbian trope. Anything in fact not to be compared to other males and if this means ignoring the needs of women so be it.

@BuntingEllacott

But perception is important isn't it? I'm not just trying to be antagonistic, but as an example, many people on here acknowledge that some trans men pass as men. So a man in a relationship with that trans man (and the trans man himself) will face potential harassment and discrimination because they are seen as gay men. It doesn't feel very fair to leave people to face all the hostility that comes from homophobia in society but to not allow themselves to name themselves as gay, despite everyone else is doing that to them. That's a horrible position to leave people in. And this applies to some degree to all trans relationships and it would be very difficult to put down a marker that says this trans couple experiences homophobia this one doesn't based on appearance, name or whatever. It's going to vary hugely depending on all kinds of factors. Isn't it at worthy of thought that how people identify and how people are identified is at least a factor in how people should be recognised by others with the caveat that we all have absolute respect for people's sexual and romantic orientations, do not accuse each other of bigotry and recognise where our political struggles diverge and where they meet?