Have things gone too far?

[Okbussitout]

I saw a tiktok comment thread saying that if you wouldn't have sex with a trans person you're transphobic. My thinking on this is sexuality is quite complex. But for example I've had gay friends say to me they feel really grossed out by the opposite sex genitals) both gay men and women) so if someone has a penis but presents as a woman (this isn't an argument about passing) then it's transphobic not to be attracted to them because they have genitals of the opposite sex that you are attracted to. Primarily I'd say I'm straight and a big part of that is my enjoyment of my partner's penis. (sorry that statement is tmi and redic to type)

This got me thinking about gc argument on here. For the first time I was thinking this doesn't make logical sense. You can dress how you want, call yourself what you want, use the spaces you want, as actually I don't think most trans people are a threat. I'm happy for trans women to be women. But I feel trying to dictate who people have sex is too much.

I'm sort of musing, but also wonder if actually on both sides there is such adversity that there's no going back? With increasingly wild arguments on both sides. So how would there be a way forward from here?

I'm wondering if trans people are angry because they feel their bodies don't match their gender in their head. I've had on and of mental health issues so can imagine this feels awful. I'm also fat so know what it's like to be discriminated against. Maybe gc women are angry because they already feel ver discriminated against and are now told the rights we have are not needed. So yeah I just wonder if this debate is at a point with no way forward reasonable way forward. I'd like to know people's views on this.

Calling Robert Winston an old toff has the perception of anti-semitism about it, if you ask me.

@InspiralCoalescenceRingdown

Calling Robert Winston an old toff has the perception of anti-semitism about it, if you ask me.

Bit desperate, I didn't even know he was Jewish, he is a Lord though.

Ok, but maybe the poster is just putting their view out there, having a discussion, what if that is what they are trying to achieve? Is that wrong?

My view and that of the law, is that lesbians are same sex attracted (biological) women. I couldn't care less, of someone thinks differently, unless it gets written into law or everyday protocols.

The act is all about perception.

No, it isn't. It's one grounds by which you can be mistakenly discriminated against. It's not a major element of the act and the cases where it has been used are quite possibly very few.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

The act is all about perception.

No, it isn't. It's one grounds by which you can be mistakenly discriminated against. It's not a major element of the act and the cases where it has been used are quite possibly very few.

It's the key element of the act and the only reason there aren't many cases where perception doesn't match the reality is because most of the time the perception is correct.

It is not the key element of the act. The sex characteristic is quite clear. A female of any age = woman.

But yes I agree with you that people's sex is perfectly obvious in the vast majority of cases, however people present themselves.

@334bu

I am posting in good faith, I'm not a horrible person or raging misogynist - I want to see this fixed and for all women, and gender variant people of any description to be able to live free from violence and all the shit in the world that comes from not being a male identified man. I don't really care whether people think trans women are women, I care for trans women are able to live safe dignified lives and part of achieving that has to be recognising that trans women often face very similar social problems to all other women whilst recognising there are also differences. Throughout I've called for solutions that seek to accommodate everyone, such as decent single stall toilets with sinks or a properly funded refuge system with a diversity of provision.

I object to misinformation being posted, which it is quite often, even if by mistake and seek to challenge that. I'm also deeply concerned about where some elements of this are going and the consequences for all women in the long run. And I think the trans perspective has a right to be heard in a high profile debate on the world's largest parenting website. Also, I suspect like several posters here, I'm quite prone to getting drawn into an argument and sometimes get sucked in when I didn't mean to. That's why I'm here, not because I've been ordered to be here by some shadowy trans conspiracy. They made me post that by the way. I'll try do more jokes.

jj, I have no issue with people being protected against discrimination or violence, whatever the motivation for it.

That applies very much to the lesbians and gay men who are currently facing a fresh wave of despicable homophobia from some TM, some TW, and a whole raft of hangers on who seem to rather enjoy it being acceptable again to call gay men fags and suggesting that if a lesbian likes a strap on she should accept a male lesbian.

You made quite some mileage out of claiming that you feel Stonewall support you on the Allison Bailey thread, and tbh, fair enough. The TQ+ in the LGBTQ+ have nothing particularly in common with me, but I don't begrudge them getting support for whatever their issues are. Equality law should indeed, and does, ensure that no one should lose livelihood or home because of how they choose to present themselves to the world wrt ideas of 'gender'.

Up until this point you have steadfastly refused to acknowledge the particular issues pertinent in this issue to women, and specifically to lesbians, and in fact have expended enormous effort in dismissing every single example brought to you of the discrimination, coercive behaviour and even danger that women have faced because of the very policies you claim are harmless.

I believe you claim a gender fluid identity (I can't recall, correct me if I am wrong) and from what I have picked up, I think you are attracted to men? Again, if I'm wrong, feel free to say so, and indeed, to say simply 'no, you are wrong' on that point without further info if you don't want to be more specific about yourself.

If you were born male, and are oriented towards men, then I'd consider you gay or bi, and as such, just like many men I knew in my younger days who faced hideous homophobic bigotry. You're entirely right that we should have common cause.

But it's very difficult to find that when you behave as you do towards women, lesbians included, who simply wish to retain their rights, all the while insisting that there is no conflict between trans rights as demanded, and women's rights. I'm feeling an excess of generosity tonight, because I'm incredibly tired, my brother is dying and I am prepared to believe that you are genuinely simply scared that men will harm you for being different.

Is it possible that you could acknowledge that there is an issue here, and that maybe there is a workable solution that doesn't take rights and provision from women? That LGB issues are not exactly the same as T ones?

Jesus, I don't know what's got into me.

Jesus, I don't know what's got into me.

I think it's called a last ditch attempt to make a TRA understand. Personally, I'm not holding out any hope.

Biology deniers are no more credible than climate change deniers.

Worse, in fact, because few of us have actually examined ice cores for ourselves or modelled wind patterns on fluctuating water temperatures.
Yet, we have all come from the body of a woman and we all have a father, so the evidence is rather closer to hand.

We need to have clear objective language to describe phenomena that exist. We can add the psychosocial layers on top, in different contexts to solve the problems that will pop up.
But we will solve nothing if we destabilise the objective meaning of basic facts, when there is no new discovery that makes these basic facts obsolete. Which of course there isn't.

There is such a thing as freezing point.
There is such a thing sexual dimorphism.
There is such a thing as sexual orientation.

Now let's discuss the psychosocial elements.

If the aim is actually to solve problems.

[quote jj1968]@334bu

I am posting in good faith, I'm not a horrible person or raging misogynist - I want to see this fixed and for all women, and gender variant people of any description to be able to live free from violence and all the shit in the world that comes from not being a male identified man. I don't really care whether people think trans women are women, I care for trans women are able to live safe dignified lives and part of achieving that has to be recognising that trans women often face very similar social problems to all other women whilst recognising there are also differences. Throughout I've called for solutions that seek to accommodate everyone, such as decent single stall toilets with sinks or a properly funded refuge system with a diversity of provision.

I object to misinformation being posted, which it is quite often, even if by mistake and seek to challenge that. I'm also deeply concerned about where some elements of this are going and the consequences for all women in the long run. And I think the trans perspective has a right to be heard in a high profile debate on the world's largest parenting website. Also, I suspect like several posters here, I'm quite prone to getting drawn into an argument and sometimes get sucked in when I didn't mean to. That's why I'm here, not because I've been ordered to be here by some shadowy trans conspiracy. They made me post that by the way. I'll try do more jokes.[/quote]
Your top paragraph here is exactly what the GC crowd want.

So wheres the friction? Honestly, as you see it.

That's why I'm here, not because I've been ordered to be here by some shadowy trans conspiracy. They made me post that by the way. I'll try do more jokes

Please do

And i agree with 7days re the first paragraph

I don't think LGB issues are exactly the same as T ones, it's more that most T's are LGB, or perceived as such by society - to different degrees and in different ways but they are. And to the the most rampant homophobes, and they are on the rise again, we're all degenerate freaks.

I wish a lot of the angry young queer and trans kids on twitter would shut up sometimes but they ain't going to. I think a large part of the hostility in this debate is down to social media, and in particular a generational clash over how people express themselves. And I guess that applies here as well to some degree (not the generational thing). It is easy to lose empathy, or get angry, or talk past each other and this is an issue which triggers all kinds of things often including our own very deep trauma.

But equally I'm quite excited about what's happening with young people. The number of them now identifying as LGBTQ, or acknowledging same sex attraction in themselves, or supporting LGBTQ people, and I'm using the acronym in its entirity deliberately. I rather suspect it's more complex but if straight kids are identifying as queer because it's cool that's astonishing given how straight kids when I was growing up would of done anything possible not to be associated with gays. I think it's exciting, things were never going to stay fixed in stone and we may be finally approaching a world that actually resembles the diversity and many complexities of authentic human sexuality.

But I don't want lesbians to feel coerced into any kind of relationship or sexual experience they don't want and I recognise that that was the experience of a lot of lesbians of my generation and older and understand it must be enraging to see some of the stuff young queer kids come out with. Equally though trans people exist and have to navigate this world somehow and I suppose where I do come into conflict is that I feel a lot of problems are overstated to suit an agenda which tends to portray trans people as predatory, or dangerous or as having some deeper agenda.

As I said before, I didn't mean to end up in lesbian searches on okcupid - and this was a time when I was on hormones and presenting as female all the time. It was just how the site worked and I was always completely upfront. Sometimes a lesbian would message me and I'd say I was trans and she'd say sorry not into that, and I'd say that's cool and it was all fine. Sometimes she'd say she didn't mind and had usually seen it on my profile anyway - maybe you think that means she's not a real lesbian but she clearly doesn't think that. That's my experience of the discussion on this thread out in the wild. People just muddle along with a bit of common sense and decent behaviour despite having different ideas about things, and yet sometimes it's presented like there's a war out there.

I'm bi incidentally although I identify as queer just to annoy Graham Lineham.

@BuntingEllacott sorry above was in response to your post, I forgot to tag you in.

To all women on here and ❤️*@Datun* @BuntingEllacott @334bu

Thank you. Thank you for being here.

The horrific abuse of corrective rape to which lesbians were and are subjected in this world explains the disgust that many lesbians

feel when members of the male sex appropriate their identity.
It is a great shame that members of another marginalised group should show such disregard and disrespect towards same sex attracted females

And I think the trans perspective has a right to be heard in a high profile debate on the world's largest parenting website.

Why? On a website geared towards Women I can understand the point of discussing these issues but why do you believe that the 'trans perspective' has a right to be heard? It's heard all over twitter and tiktok and facebook and youtube and reddit etc etc. Plus terrestrial media esp the BBC. There's no shortage at all of the 'trans perspective'

Also, many of the above sites seem to have no compunction in shutting down the gender critical perspective at any opportunity, with no outcry from trans activists about a 'right to be heard'.

Obviously trans people feckin' exist. Jaysus. And tbh, the issue isn't actually trans people, it's specific individuals who are leveraging these issues and give no shits at all for trans or LGB people. And yes, a raging homophobe will not stop to check if the man presenting in feminine dress is a feminine gay man, or a TW, before he beats the shit out of him. Because that's how homophobia works, it doesn't care about your 'gender identity' it just thinks you're not manning or womanning properly and must be punished.

And yes, it's mostly daft youngsters on social media pushing the extremities, and I wouldn't fucking care if that was all it was because they'll get bored just like I got bored of Quantum Leap and Five Star. But some people who do not have good intent have spied an opportunity to gain some power at the expense of others, and that does matter. It doesn't mean that there's a big conspiracy, and I've always said never blame a conspiracy when incompetence, laziness and short sightedness explains everything.

Is it good that more young people are happy to play with gender boxes and be 'queer'? I think that could be unpacked and queried, tbh. If I thought that kids were genuinely challenging gender, then yes, it would be good, but I'm mostly seeing some girls come out as lesbian on the way to trans because the social cache is in the myriad trans identities, not in the prosaic woman who is oriented to other women sexuality. And also because there's a weird blindspot that seems to have forgotten the things we were saying 20 years ago about girls can be what they want and look like they want, and gender identity ideas are pissing all over those concepts. I've lost count now of the times I've been assumed to be trans because some people are so narrow minded by this all that they can't conceive a woman would have a mostly shaved head and wear clothes from the blokes section and still be a woman, which is honestly so blinkered and yes, bigoted that I still shake my head a little at it.

And yes, I get incredibly fucked off with this idea that lesbians can just shrug off the men that seek them out. I'm glad you don't do it, and if a woman who claimed to be a lesbian sought you out, then no, I wouldn't think she was a lesbian, but at the same time, she sought you out, so that's her business. But I dealt with conversion therapy, a long marriage and an abusive mother who hated my sexuality, not to mention a society which assumes straight, and I was in a deep, self hating closet for decades. The idea that after all that, lesbian women should have to deal with men claiming a lesbian identity trying to coerce them and just shrug it off just betrays zero understanding of social and power dynamics, and basic consent too.

Identify as queer if you want. I'm not Graham Linehan, I'm not actual a fan of Linehan excrpt in his actual comedy work, so if you want to have a pissing contest with it's your affair. My concern will always be women, and I've never been all that convinced men can understand this properly. Just don't call me queer, ever. When it's been used with a punch, it never gets to reclaimed status.

Anyway, I'm really fucking knackered now. I don't know if this has been a positive exchange or not. I suspect that neither of us has moved in essentials, but at least there were jokes.

💐🧁

That was for bunting i should probably have said that...

@7Days

I'm not sure that's all that some of the GC crowd want, I think some of the crowd want trans people gone - not murdered in ours beds gone - but just pushed back into the margins and stigmatised much like we have been historically. I'm not even saying that's most people, but they are there, and certainly those who some in the GC movement have chosen to align with want that. In fact some of them probably would quite like us to be murdered in our beds.

I think the friction is how to we organise society pragmatically in a way that ensures safety and equality and this means acknowledging all social forces at play honestly, including gender which whether we like it or not plays a large part in shaping our lives. And one particular point of friction is there is a very different perception of what has been happening - trans people really have been using spaces inline with their gender for a long time and are now frightened because that is under threat.

To a lot of trans people this feels very unfair, it's come out of the blue pretty much and it's not really something anyone seemed to have that much of a problem with until a few years ago. Yet it's often presented as trans people demanding access and that this will be an awful and dangerous thing whereas from the trans perspective that access has been there a long time and all the terrible and dangerous things haven't happened. So now loads of people are scared of us who weren't before and the Tories and right wing press have decided to declare us the first victims of their culture war.

We are a tiny percentage of the population with a bunch of shouty allies who often do more harm than good. Yes there is good and bad in our community but the bad are continually overstated to the point a lot of our detracters can probably name more trans criminals off the top of their head than trans professors or politicians. And that's not a nice position to be in because it wasn't actually a barrel of laughs being trans before this started. People are scared, a lot of stuff, like worrying about statistics being out by a fraction of a percentage point feels petty. A lot of the rhetoric that is defended, like some of Posie's stuff is pretty chilling. This feels like an attack and yet we are being accused of being the attacker. And perhaps it feels like that on the other side too, but our fear, and they way we feel and perceive this is just as sincere as the way you do.

You think I'm enjoying it? The management of the international trans conspiracy put me on mumsnet duty for a year after I got demoted for misgendering a furry. I was supposed to be spiking Covid vaccines with estrogen by now.

That was really, really funny JJ More please.

Please tell your shouty allies this, then. Tell them that threatening women with rape for querying all this (and don't say it doesn't happen, I came off Twitter precisely because I couldn't cope with it anymore) is not helping women to consider that you as a trans person aren't a threat. Because I may well believe that you're not, but a lot of my sisters think you are because of what your allies are actually saying and doing. They are the issue here. I have never, ever supported violence against anyone, and I've seen horribly nasty things said to trans people, most especially in recent times - as a response to your allies loudly pushing aside at safeguarding. We warned on this board that it would happen. We said that if you push against Joe public with the extreme threats and the kinky weird shit involving kids and you smash up girls sports and you insist that their mums can't have a female nurse wash them etc. then the really bigoted people are going to have a bloody field day.
You can dismiss the loons as fringe extremists or you can openly denounce them. I'm not big on Blaire White, but Blaire has at least done that. You seem to have often just dismissed them. It's much harder to do when they send you threats directly.

I cannot help it if my fellow women have now said 'Nah, fuck it, drawbridge up'. If you want that to change, then telling women they are being unreasonable to want to keep the baseball bat people out seems unlikely to succeed. Take on the baseball bat people. Stop saying 'nothing to see here'. Then a conversation may be productive.

@RufustheSniggeringReindeer

💐🧁

Thank you Rufus. Is that a cupcake?