Have things gone too far?

[Okbussitout]

I saw a tiktok comment thread saying that if you wouldn't have sex with a trans person you're transphobic. My thinking on this is sexuality is quite complex. But for example I've had gay friends say to me they feel really grossed out by the opposite sex genitals) both gay men and women) so if someone has a penis but presents as a woman (this isn't an argument about passing) then it's transphobic not to be attracted to them because they have genitals of the opposite sex that you are attracted to. Primarily I'd say I'm straight and a big part of that is my enjoyment of my partner's penis. (sorry that statement is tmi and redic to type)

This got me thinking about gc argument on here. For the first time I was thinking this doesn't make logical sense. You can dress how you want, call yourself what you want, use the spaces you want, as actually I don't think most trans people are a threat. I'm happy for trans women to be women. But I feel trying to dictate who people have sex is too much.

I'm sort of musing, but also wonder if actually on both sides there is such adversity that there's no going back? With increasingly wild arguments on both sides. So how would there be a way forward from here?

I'm wondering if trans people are angry because they feel their bodies don't match their gender in their head. I've had on and of mental health issues so can imagine this feels awful. I'm also fat so know what it's like to be discriminated against. Maybe gc women are angry because they already feel ver discriminated against and are now told the rights we have are not needed. So yeah I just wonder if this debate is at a point with no way forward reasonable way forward. I'd like to know people's views on this.

[quote Okbussitout]@BuntingEllacott OK orientation not preference. I understand when protected by law language means something but I was using it interchangeably. Orientation it is though. I do feel I agree with you regarding yuur sexuality yet you're looking for disagreement or acting as if I disagree.[/quote]
I am asking for clear terms, and given that in the past week lesbians have been deleted on FWR for stating the facts about their situation, and a poster is merrily and without censure yet again ploughing through a thread on here doing the usual anti-lesbian schtick of trying to obscure the meaning of words, these things are important.

I appreciate it's tedious, but I am giving you the courtesy of explaining why it's important, given that you asked the questions. This particular aspect may not affect you, but one of things you'll probably pick up quite quickly is that another aspect of the ideology will, and accurate language becomes vital. I'm not attacking you, I am just being direct. This isn't an insult, I'm actually giving you the respect you deserve as an intelligent woman without needing to couch everything in patronizing syrup.

But have some anyway, because this has ended up as a bit of a bunfight and that's not really your fault. I hope you're getting something out of it nonetheless.

OP, I appreciate you're slightly taken aback by the way the thread has gone, but I've realised that at some point in the last few years, the definition of lesbian has become oddly muddied.

It's become imperative for lesbians to hammer out what "lesbian" means, rather than assume everyone is on the same page and then get broadsided with the homophobia later.

I know you've been shocked by the examples of homophobia put up in this thread. Bunting is getting directly targeted by this crap and has been trying to alert other women to it for yonks.

@JustTurtlesAllTheWayDown

When you look at the sticking points from women's side, it's about trying to retain even our most basic boundaries, rights and protections. If you look through this board and what women are angry about, it's things like refuges being defunded in the name of 'gender equality' and anti-FGM campaigners like Hibo Wardere being piled on for not prioritising trans women. Because we're vocal about objecting to those things, we get called bigoted and we're angry about that too. I've never seen women picketing or trying to get a trans shelter defunded for example. Its simply not a both sides situation. If the trans movement moves to a point where they stop trying to remove women's boundaries and rights, I genuinely wouldn't be in the least bit interested in arguing with them. I will always support gender non conformity and the right of people to express gender however they fancy. I will also fight against the removal of women's rights. I would like trans activists to do the same and stop framing women's rights as transphobic.

@JustTurtlesAllTheWayDown

Haven't rtft so may already have been said...

OP these to opinions you have stated contradict each other:

"I'm happy for trans women to be women. But I feel trying to dictate who people have sex is too much."

If you truly believe that TWAW OP, and you believe that heterosexual men are sexually attracted to women, then by default you beleive that heterosexual men are sexually attracted to TW.

Only many aren't are they, in reality.

This is why so many people are choosing the TWAW hill to die on. Because changing the meaning of a descriptor that is so deeply entrenched in every aspect of life has extroardinarily wide reaching implications.

It is simply reality however that there are some lesbians, who consider themselves lesbians who might consider it and in fact have done in some cases.

Then can consider themselves what they like. People who have a penis aren't lesbian, women who are sexually attracted to men aren't lesbian.

You really should read the equalities act.

Sorry loads of spelling mistakes - I'm tired!

Trans people have absolutely said "genital preferences are transphobic". Riley J Dennis made a video about it, here brilliantly skewered by the late, wonderful Magdalen Berns RIP :

Then can consider themselves what they like. People who have a penis aren't lesbian, women who are sexually attracted to men aren't lesbian.

It really is quite simple.

You really should read the equalities act.

The Equalities Act is based on perception, not rigid definitions.

If you truly believe that TWAW OP, and you believe that heterosexual men are sexually attracted to women, then by default you beleive that heterosexual men are sexually attracted to TW.

Only many aren't are they, in reality.

I kind of wish they weren't sometimes but many are. It's not gay men keeping the massive trans sex industry afloat.

Magdalen forever❤

OP her videos are excellent if you want to grasp a lot of this. She's quite the dry wit too.

It's not "based on perception", that is one of the grounds on which a person can be discriminated against. Anyone can be. So if someone mistakenly genuinely thinks a male is a woman and discriminates against them on that basis, that is rightly illegal. Or if they mistakenly think they are black or Muslim or disabled.

I understand the need for certain language to be used. Especially when there are protections in law. So I'm not trying to say you're awkward by pointing out the difference. This would be the same for other protected characteristics.

I do also get that lots of people have said the same things many times before.

Tbh there are some back and forth bits I'm skipping over but getting a gist from. So it's not actually been too much!

But the Equality Act is quite clear in its definition of sex. And sexual orientation uses the sex definition AFAIK.

Tangentially, how did 'sexual orientation' become 'sexual preference'?

I've checked my diary entries and assorted witterings. In 2004 I always wrote/typed 'orientation'. By 2020, that had become 'preference'.

Is it just that the latter is a bit easier to spell?

jj1968
Just out of interest, what have you contributed to the world, the UK, society in general, to medicine, science, education, ecology, charity?
Compared to, for example, Robert Winston, Emma Nicholson, Shirley Williams, just to name 3 off the top of my head?

There's a storyline on the american Shameless where a late teenage boy has just come out as gay, breaks off a relationship with an older man, then love of his life breaks up with him, then he meets attractive guy in club. Attractive guy takes it slow, boy finds out what a wonderful, community minded person he is and falls for him. Then attractive guy says he used to be female. Boy is confused, takes a day to think about it, while being made to feel like a total bastard for not immediately accepting it and ultimately decides it's fine, they start a relationship and he gets fully 'educated' about pronouns.
Found this bizarre and uncomfortable. The way he took so long to come out, it was a huge deal and then was portrayed as so wrong to feel strange about attractive guy actually being a girl. It seemed at odds with everything he'd been through to come out.
Sure, sexuality is sometimes shades of grey, except for people who are firmly black or white about it, and for the former, fair enough, the person might matter more than the pheromones and equipment, but... Its the emotional black mail of it for people who are maybe still confused and not confident enough in their sexuality to see they are not at fault.

Only many aren't are they, in reality.

This is the third reason incidentally that the gender critical movement pushes this aspect of the debate so hard. The sexual violence and harassment trans women receive comes near exclusively from straight men, and as the gender critical movement seeks to downplay this violence or erase it completely it is convenient to have rigid defintions that mean straight men would never possibly sexually abuse trans women. Unfortunately pretty much every trans woman on the planet would tell you a different story.

I think people are well aware that some men hide their bisexuality.

@jj1968

You really should read the equalities act.

The Equalities Act is based on perception, not rigid definitions.

It's not based on the 'perception' that men are lesbians 🤣🤣🤣

@Endofthelinefinally

jj1968 Just out of interest, what have you contributed to the world, the UK, society in general, to medicine, science, education, ecology, charity? Compared to, for example, Robert Winston, Emma Nicholson, Shirley Williams, just to name 3 off the top of my head?

I have no idea what I would have accomplished had I been born into great wealth and privilege. It must be incredible to do interesting and challenging things without having to constantly worry about keeping a roof over your head or feeding your kid.

Well, this thread went tits up, didn’t it?

not your fault, OP, you’ve fallen in to something that happens bafflingly often on here. you’re quite right to skip huge swathes of it, there’s some right bobbins.

Maybe if you tried rephrasing your question, we could all drag the thread back to what you wanted to know rather than act eleventy billion of Why The Feminsts of Mumsnet are Big Poopy Heads?

@Endofthelinefinally

jj1968 Just out of interest, what have you contributed to the world, the UK, society in general, to medicine, science, education, ecology, charity? Compared to, for example, Robert Winston, Emma Nicholson, Shirley Williams, just to name 3 off the top of my head?

What does this have to do with anything? Surely we are all just anonymous posters, having a discussion.

It's not based on the 'perception' that men are lesbians

It a trans women in a relationship with a woman was refused a double room in a B&B because the religious owner saw two women's names and didn't like lesbians sharing a bed then on what grounds would they have a case under the Equality Act?

What do you think you're achieving on here, JJ? I've never seen you persuade anyone. All you do is give women endless opportunities to refute your daft arguments. Is that what you set out to do?