Have things gone too far?

[Okbussitout]

I saw a tiktok comment thread saying that if you wouldn't have sex with a trans person you're transphobic. My thinking on this is sexuality is quite complex. But for example I've had gay friends say to me they feel really grossed out by the opposite sex genitals) both gay men and women) so if someone has a penis but presents as a woman (this isn't an argument about passing) then it's transphobic not to be attracted to them because they have genitals of the opposite sex that you are attracted to. Primarily I'd say I'm straight and a big part of that is my enjoyment of my partner's penis. (sorry that statement is tmi and redic to type)

This got me thinking about gc argument on here. For the first time I was thinking this doesn't make logical sense. You can dress how you want, call yourself what you want, use the spaces you want, as actually I don't think most trans people are a threat. I'm happy for trans women to be women. But I feel trying to dictate who people have sex is too much.

I'm sort of musing, but also wonder if actually on both sides there is such adversity that there's no going back? With increasingly wild arguments on both sides. So how would there be a way forward from here?

I'm wondering if trans people are angry because they feel their bodies don't match their gender in their head. I've had on and of mental health issues so can imagine this feels awful. I'm also fat so know what it's like to be discriminated against. Maybe gc women are angry because they already feel ver discriminated against and are now told the rights we have are not needed. So yeah I just wonder if this debate is at a point with no way forward reasonable way forward. I'd like to know people's views on this.

We are currently faced with a full on attack on women's sex-based rights - a misogynist and bullying campaign
Lord Lucas

Anyone straight who has ever had the slightest sexual thought about someone of the same sex should immediately renounce their heterosexuality and identify as bisexual?

Well in that case am sure then most people would be the B part of LGB, wonder if all heterosexual people could appropropriate LGB jobs, funding, support on basis that they once had a same sex fantasy . It would skew ONS stats for sure .

What I'm saying is I think lesbians aren't not lesbian because they might be attracted to a trans woman. But also it's not up to me who lesbians are attracted to and how they choose to identify their sexuality.

Right, so am I an extremist for saying that lesbians are same sex oriented and not into men, however those men may feel about their maleness? Would I be an extremist for insisting on women as potential partners, or would the only acceptable position be to keep that on the downlow and not mention to the TW who contexts me that I'm not interested because they are not female?

@BuntingEllacott I don't link you're extreme in your preferences they are perfectly legitimate. I said in my op I feel that to say a lesbian should have sex with a trans woman or they are transphobic is extreme. As I'm aware many tans women don't have surgery I think it is unlikely many lesbians who are attracted to women would be attracted to tans women and see them as sexual partners when they have a penis.

@Datun

Jj the speeches have been going on for about four hours. Only one of which was not in favour of correct language.

Lord Winston, one of the foremost and respected reproductive doctors, reminds the House that humans have around 30 trillion cells in our bodies that originates at the moment of embyonic genesis, and they are all either XX or XY

Lesbians don't have a Y chromosome.

I'm not sure this thread is about the opinions of a bunch of mostly unelected old toffs though is it.

So it isn't homophobic for a transwomen to call themselves a lesbian because they believe themselves to be same sex attracted as they identify as women, despite the fact that they are male. Have I got that right?

@kateybeth79

https://twitter.com/IsHomophobia/status/1351961187148304386?s=19 The thread on this Twitter profile shows Transmen attacking gay men who aren't attracted to them.

Wow so we are now calling gay men dick fetishists?

I am also struck by the hate on that thread. Cis people are a disease. Like there's loads of people I don't agree with. I've had some awful comments on here about being fat. Possibly from some people on this thread who knows?
I feel bad and pity people who are fat phobic and think obesity is laziness. But I don't have that venomous hatred for them. I suppose I think there's hope for them! But can't imagine talking about anyone like that.

"Unelected old toffs" is so rude and disrespectful. And ignorant.

I'm not sure this thread is about the opinions of a bunch of mostly unelected old toffs though is it.

Haha! So we cant Listen to people who make the laws because they're old, or because they said something you don't like, or because they don't understand it, or because you like to be classist.

Never mind, jj, at least you've read the memo.

What has been the TRA reaction on Twatter?

Overall, I'd characterise it as "delayed". Some people are aware it was going on but it's waiting on TRAs in general getting their second or third hand pre-digested talking points before the ranting begins in earnest. The initial comments are effectively that the House of Lords needs to be no-platformed.

@Endofthelinefinally

"Unelected old toffs" is so rude and disrespectful. And ignorant.

I don't think they deserve any respect, no-one voted for them.

Wow the homophobia in those tweets is quite something.

Is there Anyone, in the entire universe, JJ, who you think has the right to tell you what a lesbian is?

[quote Okbussitout]@BuntingEllacott I don't link you're extreme in your preferences they are perfectly legitimate. I said in my op I feel that to say a lesbian should have sex with a trans woman or they are transphobic is extreme. As I'm aware many tans women don't have surgery I think it is unlikely many lesbians who are attracted to women would be attracted to tans women and see them as sexual partners when they have a penis.[/quote]
Small but important point of order here - it's not a preference, it's a sexual orientation, protected by law. A preference would my preferring women with long hair. My sexual orientation is towards women. Either is reason enough for to turn someone down, of course. But sexual orientation is the one protected in law, and the one that is currently facing attempted undermining by a myriad of coercive pressure points as displayed most consistently on this thread by jj

What has been the TRA reaction on Twatter?

No-one really cares, it'll be a bit shit if a trans man MP gets pregnant one day but I'm sure they'll be able to work round it. Of all the things you think keep trans people up at night.

No-one really cares

👍

Oh, and a surgically altered penis is in no way analogous to a vulva/vagina. So even then, nope. Still not female.

Trying to control who people - specifically women - sleep with is such obvious MRA stuff. Choosing a sexual partner is not like giving someone a job. You are not obliged to be 'fair'.

Absolutely. What you needed to have been looking at is the reaction - or lack of it. It's the reactions to people being idiots or sensible that tell you whether you're in trouble yet.

We're in deep trouble.

Indeed. Good point.

@BuntingEllacott OK orientation not preference. I understand when protected by law language means something but I was using it interchangeably. Orientation it is though. I do feel I agree with you regarding yuur sexuality yet you're looking for disagreement or acting as if I disagree.

@notyourhandmaid

Trying to control who people - specifically women - sleep with is such obvious MRA stuff. Choosing a sexual partner is not like giving someone a job. You are not obliged to be 'fair'.

Exactly! Female social conditioning already plays enough of a role, and you see it on here nearly daily 'Oh, you're so shallow', 'Give him a chance' 'Probably just shy dig deeper' and JADEing twat behaviour. You're allowed to have whatever boundary you'd like when it comes to whom you share you time with and sleep with. That's not bigotry, that's bodily autonomy.

Which is funny, because we were told yesterday that gender critical people barely exist in the US, but today it's such a huge problem that it needs to be dealt with with guns.)

24 hours is a long time! It's great that they were able to build a movement so very very quickly.

@XDownwiththissortofthingX

There are extreme positions on all sides. I think the problem is that people on either side are now latching on to some of the more outlandish and ridiculous statements and views, and then acting like every single person on the opposite side of the argument subscribes to these views and opinions, when that simply isn't the case.

The idea that people are being phobic because of sexual preference isn't a mainstream or widely held view, even among trans rights activists, so it doesn't really help with credibility when you attack all trans activists as if they all subscribe to and unquestioningly accept this view.

The same in the other direction of course.

That may be true but unfortunately it's now mainstream in online apps and platforms to kick off people for saying they are same sex attracted. For example lesbians being kicked off lesbian dating apps for saying they are females attracted to females.

@Datun

No-one really cares

👍

I expect baroness barker will be fed up she’s made such a public arse of herself over an issue TRA don’t even care about! Perhaps she didnt get the memo...

@notyourhandmaid

Trying to control who people - specifically women - sleep with is such obvious MRA stuff. Choosing a sexual partner is not like giving someone a job. You are not obliged to be 'fair'.

But that's not what's happening beyond a few dickish comments on twitter. If it genuinely was mainstream 'trans ideology' that lesbians should be coerced into sex with trans women then you wouldn't have gender critical people producing false flag stickers with the trans flag on them claming "genital preferences are transphobic". You wouldn't need to, because trans people would be saying it themselves. The gender critical movement is desperate to push this myth.

It is not transphobic if a lesbian doesn't want to have relationships with a trans woman, and no trans woman wants a relationship with someone who doesn't fancy them. It is simply reality however that there are some lesbians, who consider themselves lesbians who might consider it and in fact have done in some cases. If people want to decide they aren't allowed to call themselves lesbians anymore that's up to them, but personally I think sexuality is a complex and highly personal business and that people have the right to define their own sexuality rather than have one imposed on them.

But is it homophobic for a male person who identifies as a woman to describe themselves as a lesbian? Is this not at the very least grossly disrespectful?