Have things gone too far?

[Okbussitout]

I saw a tiktok comment thread saying that if you wouldn't have sex with a trans person you're transphobic. My thinking on this is sexuality is quite complex. But for example I've had gay friends say to me they feel really grossed out by the opposite sex genitals) both gay men and women) so if someone has a penis but presents as a woman (this isn't an argument about passing) then it's transphobic not to be attracted to them because they have genitals of the opposite sex that you are attracted to. Primarily I'd say I'm straight and a big part of that is my enjoyment of my partner's penis. (sorry that statement is tmi and redic to type)

This got me thinking about gc argument on here. For the first time I was thinking this doesn't make logical sense. You can dress how you want, call yourself what you want, use the spaces you want, as actually I don't think most trans people are a threat. I'm happy for trans women to be women. But I feel trying to dictate who people have sex is too much.

I'm sort of musing, but also wonder if actually on both sides there is such adversity that there's no going back? With increasingly wild arguments on both sides. So how would there be a way forward from here?

I'm wondering if trans people are angry because they feel their bodies don't match their gender in their head. I've had on and of mental health issues so can imagine this feels awful. I'm also fat so know what it's like to be discriminated against. Maybe gc women are angry because they already feel ver discriminated against and are now told the rights we have are not needed. So yeah I just wonder if this debate is at a point with no way forward reasonable way forward. I'd like to know people's views on this.

Sorry this post is a bit rambling!

Have you read anything else on this board OP?
You will find it very interesting and informative.

There are extreme positions on all sides. I think the problem is that people on either side are now latching on to some of the more outlandish and ridiculous statements and views, and then acting like every single person on the opposite side of the argument subscribes to these views and opinions, when that simply isn't the case.

The idea that people are being phobic because of sexual preference isn't a mainstream or widely held view, even among trans rights activists, so it doesn't really help with credibility when you attack all trans activists as if they all subscribe to and unquestioningly accept this view.

The same in the other direction of course.

Of course things have gone too far. We're living in a new religious dystopia with blasphemy laws where you run the risk of being fired or arrested if you acknowledge reality. Especially if you're a woman.

I don’t honestly quite know how understanding that humans are sexually dimorphic has come to be seen as an extreme view. It’s not an adversarial position, it’s just reality.

@XDownwiththissortofthingX

There are extreme positions on all sides. I think the problem is that people on either side are now latching on to some of the more outlandish and ridiculous statements and views, and then acting like every single person on the opposite side of the argument subscribes to these views and opinions, when that simply isn't the case.

The idea that people are being phobic because of sexual preference isn't a mainstream or widely held view, even among trans rights activists, so it doesn't really help with credibility when you attack all trans activists as if they all subscribe to and unquestioningly accept this view.

The same in the other direction of course.

Oh I'm definitely not attacking trans right activists as if they all believe this. I'm actually not attacking anyone come to think of it. This was an example from the trans rights side. But equally I've read things here where I feel trans people are seen as a threat to women by them being in the same toilet when actually I'd say the overwhelming majority just wnat to pee.

There are lots of people who I wouldn’t have sex with, that doesn’t make my phobic of whatever thing someone has decided is the reason.
I also remember reading that “your love is not unconditional if the genitals aren’t those you expected” (or words to that effect) - my love for someone isn’t unconditional anyway, there are lots of things I might find out that would be a dealbreaker!

We got to the just wanting to pee comment in record time.

I feel trans people are seen as a threat to women by them being in the same toilet when actually I'd say the overwhelming majority just wnat to pee How do you know this OP? And what do you suggest for the ones who don't just want to pee

The idea that people are being phobic because of sexual preference isn't a mainstream or widely held view, even among trans rights activists, so it doesn't really help with credibility when you attack all trans activists as if they all subscribe to and unquestioningly accept this view

Except for I really haven't seen this.

Lesbians with female penis verbally berating lesbians who do not want to sleep with a person with a penis is a nasty side to all this if your same sex attracted you should not be coerced into changing

I've no personal experience about this happening with gay men

@YetAnotherSpartacus

Except for I really haven't seen this

I have

@SpongeBobJudgeyPants

I feel trans people are seen as a threat to women by them being in the same toilet when actually I'd say the overwhelming majority just wnat to pee How do you know this OP? And what do you suggest for the ones who don't just want to pee

I suppose this is the thing isn't it I don't. I'm not sure how easy it is to actually know this either way. We don't have the mind reading thing from minority report where we know pre crim intentions!

But also I'm trying to have a non accusatory conversation about this and we are just a few comments in but already seem to be getting adversarial. Which I really don't think I've brought in my tone. As if I have I need to review how I email at work!

Things have definitely gone way too far.

I’m sure someone will be able to link you to the Break it Down for me thread which will give you a starting point.

Returning your post, on what grounds do you accept transwomen as women? In what way can they be included in the female sex class?

Would your heterosexual male partner consider having sex with a pre-op, no hormones transwoman?

Does Eddie Izzard (now a transwoman) share more physical similarities and life experiences with me (a woman) or my husband?

Re Downwiths comment, Stonewall itself is the self appointed policy maker for all public service organisations and the employers of 1/4 of the population and has decreed that lesbians wanting exclusively same sex relationships are transphobic (and indeed is currently being taken to court for trying to get a prominent black lesbian sacked for asserting that lesbians are same sex attracted).

Stonewall have also unilaterally decreed that lesbian and gay orientation is ‘same gender’ not same sex. ‘Same gender’ is pretty much the opposite of same sex. This is contrary to the legal definition that provides protection against discrimination based on Sexual Orientation in the Equality Act 2010.

I’d say that qualifies as a widely propagated edict.

I have

Examples?

We’re talking about men like this accessing female spaces
www.examinerlive.co.uk/news/west-yorkshire-news/former-teacher-avoids-jail-after-18722860
I genuinely have no issue with people being whomever they want, call yourself a pineapple if you like
I fully accept there are individuals that are attracted to trans women/men
But nobody should be abused for having a different opinion to you and we shouldn’t have our free speech criminalised

Examples?

Sure.

I've had it levied at me, purely because I'm a Bi woman who has expressed the view that I'm in favour of proposed GRA reform.

Couldn't begin to unpick the logic behind it, but the assumption was made none the less.

How do you think your question would go over on a forum for trans people, ok? If you posed the question “has this gone too far?”, in relation to trans rights, what do you think would happen?

The idea that people are being phobic because of sexual preference isn't a mainstream or widely held view, even among trans rights activists

Maybe not "people", but it certainly seems to be mainstream when considering lesbians, as per this thread.

There's far less pressure on gay men to accept females, or straight women to accept females, and basically none on straight men to accept males.

There's a clear "females must accept males" dynamic in play.

I've had it levied at me, purely because I'm a Bi woman who has expressed the view that I'm in favour of proposed GRA reform

That's really unclear. It seems that you might also be generalising (which I don't think we are allowed to do here). What do you mean by 'you'? Did you get a couple of criticisms (about what is unclear) and you are projecting that 'you' (us) all think the same?

@Sophoclesthefox

How do you think your question would go over on a forum for trans people, ok? If you posed the question “has this gone too far?”, in relation to trans rights, what do you think would happen?

I don't know. But would guess people would give a list of all the extreme things people from the other side have done. So it need to go that fra. So yeah actually probably daft as in general people want to tell yiu why they are wronged not what they have done wrong. What do you think would happen?

@YetAnotherSpartacus

I've had it levied at me, purely because I'm a Bi woman who has expressed the view that I'm in favour of proposed GRA reform

That's really unclear. It seems that you might also be generalising (which I don't think we are allowed to do here). What do you mean by 'you'? Did you get a couple of criticisms (about what is unclear) and you are projecting that 'you' (us) all think the same?

Actually I'm not sure on the you you're talking about. As in a pp yiu seemed to impky I was attacking trans activists by saying

It doesn't really help credibility when you attack all trans rights activists. When I wasn't attacking anyone. Did you mean that in general? Or me specifically?

But also I'm trying to have a non accusatory conversation about this and we are just a few comments in but already seem to be getting adversarial. Which I really don't think I've brought in my tone. As if I have I need to review how I email at work!

I don't think my post was agressive. And if you start a thread like this, where women feel very strongly, you are going to have to put big girl pants on.

So, a group of lesbians’Get the L Out’ feel totally disenfranchised by Stonewall’s redefinition of their sexual orientation to include people not born female that identify as lesbians. Their statement is below.

The reaction of Stonewall, led by CEO at the time, Ruth Hunt vilified them for being transphobic and demanded their removal from the Pride March (remember that Pride was support be about LGB?)

The edict comes from the very top. Stonewall is an extremely powerful lobbying group who has influenced government policy to the major detriment of women and basic safeguarding and is being financed by taxpayers money to do so.

A Get The L Out spokeswoman said: "We protested to protect our rights and on behalf of all the lesbians intimidated, threatened and silenced by the GBT community everywhere.

"The GBT community today, by supporting the rights of males who "identify as lesbians" (also called "transwomen") over the rights of lesbians to choose their sexual partners (on the basis of their sex, not how they "identify") is in fact enforcing heterosexuality on lesbians.

"This is a misogynistic and anti-lesbian manifestation of the rape culture we live in."

www.stonewall.org.uk/node/82236

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-england-london-44757403

With increasingly wild arguments on both sides.

What do you see as the wild arguments on "this" side?