Have things gone too far?

[Okbussitout]

I saw a tiktok comment thread saying that if you wouldn't have sex with a trans person you're transphobic. My thinking on this is sexuality is quite complex. But for example I've had gay friends say to me they feel really grossed out by the opposite sex genitals) both gay men and women) so if someone has a penis but presents as a woman (this isn't an argument about passing) then it's transphobic not to be attracted to them because they have genitals of the opposite sex that you are attracted to. Primarily I'd say I'm straight and a big part of that is my enjoyment of my partner's penis. (sorry that statement is tmi and redic to type)

This got me thinking about gc argument on here. For the first time I was thinking this doesn't make logical sense. You can dress how you want, call yourself what you want, use the spaces you want, as actually I don't think most trans people are a threat. I'm happy for trans women to be women. But I feel trying to dictate who people have sex is too much.

I'm sort of musing, but also wonder if actually on both sides there is such adversity that there's no going back? With increasingly wild arguments on both sides. So how would there be a way forward from here?

I'm wondering if trans people are angry because they feel their bodies don't match their gender in their head. I've had on and of mental health issues so can imagine this feels awful. I'm also fat so know what it's like to be discriminated against. Maybe gc women are angry because they already feel ver discriminated against and are now told the rights we have are not needed. So yeah I just wonder if this debate is at a point with no way forward reasonable way forward. I'd like to know people's views on this.

@334bu

Still no answer to why transwomen are posting on these apps. Do they have no respect for same sexed attracted people?

It is a mystery. Are they expecting the lesbians to ‘turn’ for them?

Have they believed Stonewall that biological sex really doesn’t matter?

Or maybe they are just happy to meet other tw lesbians like themselves?

even when activists are drawing pictures of nooses and sending them to her.

Do you honestly believe someone called osamafan3000 with just over a hundred tweets and 75 followers is actually a trans rights activist?

The internet is a shithole, online misogyny is a very real problem, that doesn't mean every single troll and dickhead you come across is a trans rights activist.

@334bu

Still no answer to why transwomen are posting on these apps. Do they have no respect for same sexed attracted people?

Perhaps in the case of Her because These communities are for LGBTQ+ womxn, trans and non-binary people to be able to discuss and share in a space that is exclusively for them.

I don't know how straight people think they even have a right to an opinion on this. Why are you so determined to police queer spaces?

I don't know how straight people think they even have a right to an opinion on this. Why are you so determined to police queer spaces?

In a discussion about men sending nooses and threats to lesbians being same-sex attracted.

Thank the lord for the people coming here to tell us there's no fucking problem. I'm so glad we get both sides of the issue here - the women saying 'this is a problem' and the other folk saying 'this isn't a problem, and anyway, your examples may well be lying'.

I mean, it's obviously infuriating that this sort of thing is permitted, and that women are so hamstrung in responding, creating a power balance that is fucking outrageous, but I at least take comfort that people can read these posts and see exactly who is who in the power balances.

Nice reversal, there, jj, and attempt to switch the categories.

Women have kinship with women when we see other women being harassed for saying "no, I won't have sex with you" to men. When we see that No ignored, when we see them being told their No is invalid.

Straight and bisexual women have all had plenty of experience of that. Lesbians, being er, lesbian, always say No, and straight and bisexual feminists will ally with our fellow women. We're not going to be blinded to misogyny and sexual harassment because you stick a "queer" label on it.

don't know how straight people think they even have a right to an opinion on this. Why are you so determined to police queer spaces?

First of all you are making assumptions about my sexual orientation because I said that I have never used such sites.
Moreover, I only mentioned lesbian dating sites and in fact named none of the above Sites in your post .So why do transwomen post on these same sex only sites? Is it contempt for lesbians, merely a lack of respect or an inability to empathise with another marginalised group.

I Googled "giggle" had a look at the twitter page, and it took literally minutes to find a tweet from a well known TRA threatening to shoot women. Twitter have allowed the tweet to stand.

That person making the gun threats was replying to another blue tick concerned that the US is ''hurtling into a serious gender critical movement.'' (Which is funny, because we were told yesterday that gender critical people barely exist in the US, but today it's such a huge problem that it needs to be dealt with with guns.)

Also, Emily G writes for the Guardian and has referenced guns and ''terfs'' before.

But it's probably just bantz though, right?

We're not going to be blinded to misogyny and sexual harassment because you stick a "queer" label on it.

Are you really saying that trans people who join a community that openly advertises it is for LGBTQ+ womxn, trans and non-binary people are somehow guilty of sexual harassment. If I go to a trans inclusive queer women's event am I sexually harassing people simply by being there despite the fact the event is explicitly welcoming of people like me?

Are you really saying that trans people who join a community that openly advertises it is for LGBTQ+ womxn, trans and non-binary people are somehow guilty of sexual harassment. If I go to a trans inclusive queer women's event am I sexually harassing people simply by being there despite the fact the event is explicitly welcoming of people like me

No we are talking about transwomen deliberately posting on sites set up for same sex attracted females. So why do they do it?

Lesbian women have been part of the feminist movement since before I was born. They have set up women's shelters for women and children fleeing male violence, they have worked for abortion rights, they have worked for contraceptive access. Julie Bindel and her partner founded Justice for Women, an organisation for law-reform for women who retaliated to domestic abuse from a male partner.

They never washed their hands of the problems affecting women in heterosexual relationships. They stood with women. I think it's time the favour was returned.

And I don't think it is your place to intercede and to speak over lesbians in this damn thread and tell women that our sisters are doing fine in the "queer" community.

Virtually every single tweet on her timeline is her ranting on about trans women, I suggest this is the reason she has attracted hostility.

Oh you mean she's asking for it by talking too much?

Fucking hilarious, isn't it? LGBTQ+ sites and lobby groups insist that lesbians should not have any say in whether their groups and services contain TQ+ people, but if you set up a group like, say LGB Alliance, to focus on the issues for LGB people, such a thing deserves to be punished because it doesn't include TQ+ and everything else.

Looks a lot like blatant fucking hypocrisy and a refusal to allow LGB people, and women in particular, the right to say no.

So incredibly transparent.

No we are talking about transwomen deliberately posting on sites set up for same sex attracted females. So why do they do it?

Which sites are these?

Nice deflection. Tell me do transwomen believe that lesbians are not same sex attracted?

@334bu

Nice deflection. Tell me do transwomen believe that lesbians are not same sex attracted?

It's not a deflection, you specifically said this was happening, so which sites do you mean?

So transwomen posting on these sites are not looking for lesbian women partners and accept that lesbians are same sex attracted females?

Well, I for one am reassured. Why isn't everyone else?

FFS. When your teenager shows you videos (not just one) of young lesbians issuing heartfelt apologies to the social-mediaverse that they are sorry for saying they don't do dicks, you know that there are issues. And that young lesbians are being shaped by these experiences.

But.... no. Because someone is here telling us that it is a fringe issue and that anyone persecuting lesbians is not representative. Maybe they are just straight men in disguise (I am not sure you really wanted to say this). And that it is not wide spread at all.

Oh. But wait.... we also have lesbians stating it IS an issue and it has been getting worse and not improving at all.

It really feels like there is a 'nothing to see here' thing happening. We are told to listen to other's experiences. We are also told that you need to listen to the right kind of person's experience, the 'real' story in a calm and soothing voice.

Confusing? of course it is!

@ArabellaScott

Virtually every single tweet on her timeline is her ranting on about trans women, I suggest this is the reason she has attracted hostility.

Oh you mean she's asking for it by talking too much?

Indeed!!!

If she STFU she wouldn't hear a peep of that hostility, would she? That she was receiving it for starting a website that was solely for females is nicely glossed over too.

@334bu

So transwomen posting on these sites are not looking for lesbian women partners and accept that lesbians are same sex attracted females?

Which sites?

If you mean Her I imagine they are looking for partners who are LGBTQ+ womxn, trans or non-binary people who are open to dating trans women. I very much doubt they are hoping to date gender critical lesbians.

How is it that only a tiny amount of people think single sex dating is transphobic, yet dating apps feel losing these customers would cost them a lot of money? Are there more than a tiny amount of them, or do that tiny amount have a disproportionate amount of influence? I cannot think of any other valid explanations.

In case anyone doesn't know, the house of lords have just voted overwhelmingly in favour of replacing the word person with the word mother, in a maternity bill.

They have also said that certain rights of women do actually trump those of trans people, and intimidatory tactics are not acceptable.

That language needs to be clear in order that women have their specific rights respected. And that 'this is just the beginning'.

They talk about the wrong advice of the EHRC and I suspect will be making it crystal clear that homosexuality is based on sex.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4176497-History-in-the-making-Watch-Parliament-Live-at-2-30pm?watched=1&msgid=105036123#105036123

**Which sites?

If you mean Her I imagine they are looking for partners who are LGBTQ+ womxn, trans or non-binary people who are open to dating trans women. I very much doubt they are hoping to date gender critical lesbians.**

So they are not expecting to date lesbians GC or not because they accept that lesbians will not be attracted to them as they do share the same sex ?

" do not share the same sex"

@Nellodee

How is it that only a tiny amount of people think single sex dating is transphobic, yet dating apps feel losing these customers would cost them a lot of money? Are there more than a tiny amount of them, or do that tiny amount have a disproportionate amount of influence? I cannot think of any other valid explanations.

I can give you a very simple explanation.

There are lesbians who would never consider dating a trans women and would refuse to use any site which was trans inclusive.

There are lesbians who would never consider dating a trans women but who simply swipe on trans women and aren't annoyed enough about it to not use the site.

There are lesbians who would consider dating trans women.

There are non-binary people who would consider dating trans women.

There are bisexual women who might use lesbian dating sites but would consider dating trans women.

There are trans women.

There are trans men.

There are lesbians who might consider dating trans men.

There are non binary people.

There are lesbians who might consider dating non binary people.

There are people who identify as queer who might have all different kinds of ways of identifying their gender and sexuality.

These last ten groups comprise far more people than the first. What they all have in common is none of them want to date male identified men. This is why a business which seeks to make a profit might tailor their services towards LGBTQ+ womxn, trans or non-binary people. No conspiracy, no secret plots, just the free market doing what the free market does and businesses maximising their customer reach.