Have things gone too far?

[Okbussitout]

I saw a tiktok comment thread saying that if you wouldn't have sex with a trans person you're transphobic. My thinking on this is sexuality is quite complex. But for example I've had gay friends say to me they feel really grossed out by the opposite sex genitals) both gay men and women) so if someone has a penis but presents as a woman (this isn't an argument about passing) then it's transphobic not to be attracted to them because they have genitals of the opposite sex that you are attracted to. Primarily I'd say I'm straight and a big part of that is my enjoyment of my partner's penis. (sorry that statement is tmi and redic to type)

This got me thinking about gc argument on here. For the first time I was thinking this doesn't make logical sense. You can dress how you want, call yourself what you want, use the spaces you want, as actually I don't think most trans people are a threat. I'm happy for trans women to be women. But I feel trying to dictate who people have sex is too much.

I'm sort of musing, but also wonder if actually on both sides there is such adversity that there's no going back? With increasingly wild arguments on both sides. So how would there be a way forward from here?

I'm wondering if trans people are angry because they feel their bodies don't match their gender in their head. I've had on and of mental health issues so can imagine this feels awful. I'm also fat so know what it's like to be discriminated against. Maybe gc women are angry because they already feel ver discriminated against and are now told the rights we have are not needed. So yeah I just wonder if this debate is at a point with no way forward reasonable way forward. I'd like to know people's views on this.

Lesbians should have lesbian only apps. For goodness sake, it's hardly revolutionary.

No-one is stopping them other than the fact we live in a capitalist society and presumably no-one thinks a dating site which insists on some verification of the sex you were born to be economically viable. Her, Hinge, Autostraddle, these are big businesses not charities, they wouldn't be making the decisions they do if it weren't profitable.

It may only be a minority of trans women who are behaving inappropriately towards lesbians but its completely clear that any lesbian who clarifies in her dating profile, no matter how politely, that she's only interested in biological women will get abuse or thrown off the platform.
This is like women trying to discuss #metoo issues and a man pops up with a defensive 'Well, I've never assaulted anyone and neither have my friends'. It adds nothing to the discussion and completely minimises a serious problem that most women have had to deal with.

What evidence of their anti-trans activities can you provide jj that doesn't just comprise of them calling for lesbians to have a voice and that they are exclusively same-sex attracted?? Who is this 'notorious anti-trans activist' that apparently leads them (although they say they are a grassroots organisation with no leader).

I'm not going to get into naming people who don't post here for the same reason I haven't when discussing trans people but honestly if you don't know who I'm talking about then you can't have been paying much attention.

I don’t think this is difficult at all.

For biological sex, just enable that as a selection criteria.

This will guarantee that only those of the biological sex you are interested in are shown to you.

If people only care about gender, they will tick both sexes and selected gender only. Why is this a problem?

It may only be a minority of trans women who are behaving inappropriately towards lesbians but its completely clear that any lesbian who clarifies in her dating profile, no matter how politely, that she's only interested in biological women will get abuse or thrown off the platform.

It's not completely clear, who are these women, which apps did they get banned from, what exactly did they say?

Not profitable to offer a women only dating app? How can this be so when the GC movement is awash with money from the far right?

As an example of abuse, I encourage anyone to google “Giggle”, the only app that is for biological women only. The CEO is now a huge amount of abuse for only catering for biological women.

@CoffeeTeaChocolate

I don’t think this is difficult at all.

For biological sex, just enable that as a selection criteria.

This will guarantee that only those of the biological sex you are interested in are shown to you.

If people only care about gender, they will tick both sexes and selected gender only. Why is this a problem?

Presumably it's a problem because these businesses do not think that is what their customers want and as such it would be unprofitable.

@jj1968

Lesbians should have lesbian only apps. For goodness sake, it's hardly revolutionary.

No-one is stopping them other than the fact we live in a capitalist society and presumably no-one thinks a dating site which insists on some verification of the sex you were born to be economically viable. Her, Hinge, Autostraddle, these are big businesses not charities, they wouldn't be making the decisions they do if it weren't profitable.

Haha!

For someone who says they are wholeheartedly rational, reasonable and inclusive about lesbian apps, rights and definitions, do you really think that what you say reflects that?

All these lesbians making trans people look bad, because of the threats against lesbians!

It's funny how lesbian bars, clubs and dating sites were commercially viable five minutes ago, but now they're not!

@CoffeeTeaChocolate

As an example of abuse, I encourage anyone to google “Giggle”, the only app that is for biological women only. The CEO is now a huge amount of abuse for only catering for biological women.

Virtually every single tweet on her timeline is her ranting on about trans women, I suggest this is the reason she has attracted hostility.

It's funny how lesbian bars, clubs and dating sites were commercially viable five minutes ago, but now they're not!

It's funny how London has lost 20 LGBT venues over the last decade or so because of rampant gentrification and a move to online dating. It's nothing to do with the trans, The Candy Bar and other lesbians venues were always trans inclusive anyway. If it is more profitable to set up apps which are trans/nonbinary inclusive then that is what people will do in a capitalist society, and if that's a mistake, then I'm sure something will come along which blows Her, Hinge and all the rest out of the water - perhaps you should be working on a business plan if you've spotted something none of these other businesses can see.

I'm not going to get into naming people who don't post here for the same reason I haven't when discussing trans people but honestly if you don't know who I'm talking about then you can't have been paying much attention..

Oh I’ve been paying lots of attention. Trouble is ‘anti trans’ seems to incorporate all sorts of things these days. Making observations about biological facts seems to be a major issue so if that’s the bar I’m not sure I can work out who you mean based on your description.

You haven’t my question about your statement on ‘rights’.

What rights do trans people feel are lacking or ‘being rolled back’?

I have no experience of lesbian dating apps but one thing strikes me very forcibly is the apparent lack of respect for lesbians shown by transwomen who post on these sites. As a marginalised minority you would expect some empathy towards another marginalised group. It is inconceivable that transwomen don't know that lesbians are same sex attracted so why, other than a complete contempt for same sex attracted females, do they post on these sites.

Oh and just in the last two days, the woman who set up giggle, firefighter Lucy Masoud, two threads on here full of testimony. Also loads of lesbian mumsnetters including a thread started by an initially very pro trans lesbian.

Umpteen grassroots organisations and articles too numerous to count.

Widespread.

Oh good, regularly scheduled 'nothing to see here' bullshit. What a refreshing change.

If it is more profitable to set up apps which are trans/nonbinary inclusive then that is what people will do in a capitalist society,

Lesbian dating apps are very commercially viable. Sall Grover is inundated with applications and she's only been at it five minutes.

And she's had to spend most of that time telling male born individuals that her site doesn't apply to them.

She's even had to introduce facial recognition because so many of them won't take no for an answer! Thousands upon thousands of them.

Lesbians are same sex attracted.

So evidence-wise we have one fairly well known gender critical activist who thinks they were kicked off Hinge - which isn't a lesbian only site - because they said they were same sex attracted but they don't really know for sure and we've all just got to take her word for it.

It does seem curious that this only seems to happen to gender critical activists or their 'friends' who they surveyed, and there is never any actual evidence. None of the lesbians I know, or follow on social media, or who are outside of gender critical circles, seem to be having these problems.

Then the need for a trans person to go to a toilet where they feel safe. Again needing to be safe is totally acceptable.

If a man says he feels safer in women's spaces, should he be allowed use them?

There's also an important gap between feeling safe and being safe, which is often manipulated these days.

@Endofthelinefinally

We got to the just wanting to pee comment in record time.

🤣🤣🤣 I was waiting for it!

It's another one of those days!

Like when women looking at kiwi farms were in danger of terrorism accusations, criticising Stonewall is actionable, and alerting women to perverts is revenge porn.

Now same sex dating isn't commercial viable!! Haha.

There's no money in it, innit. 🤣

@Datun

If it is more profitable to set up apps which are trans/nonbinary inclusive then that is what people will do in a capitalist society,

Lesbian dating apps are very commercially viable. Sall Grover is inundated with applications and she's only been at it five minutes.

And she's had to spend most of that time telling male born individuals that her site doesn't apply to them.

She's even had to introduce facial recognition because so many of them won't take no for an answer! Thousands upon thousands of them.

Lesbians are same sex attracted.

Lesbian dating apps are very commercially viable. Sall Grover is inundated with applications and she's only been at it five minutes.

Well there you are then, what are you complaining about unless you think apps for queer women should be banned or something. There's both, what's your problem?

Virtually every single tweet on her timeline is her ranting on about trans women, I suggest this is the reason she has attracted hostility

I’ve just checked Sall Grover’s timeline and she doesn’t seem to mention trans people at all - even when activists are drawing pictures of nooses and sending them to her.

You are confused jj, and again, making a rather unfair characterisation of what a woman is saying - Sall tweets about women’s rights.

Why do you think that a woman tweeting about women’s rights justifies people sending her loads of vicious and violent threats?

Sall initially allowed tw onto her app but was forced to remove them because they were setting up profiles with violent threats to women and harassing women members.

She let them in and they abused her kindness by being violent and abusive - not what the women were there for!

Still no answer to why transwomen are posting on these apps. Do they have no respect for same sexed attracted people?

CoffeeTeaChocolate

I Googled "giggle" had a look at the twitter page, and it took literally minutes to find a tweet from a well known TRA threatening to shoot women. Twitter have allowed the tweet to stand.

twitter.com/EmilyGorcenski/status/1364932786239533059

twitter.com/salltweets/status/1364852587489468417/photo/1