Have things gone too far?

[Okbussitout]

I saw a tiktok comment thread saying that if you wouldn't have sex with a trans person you're transphobic. My thinking on this is sexuality is quite complex. But for example I've had gay friends say to me they feel really grossed out by the opposite sex genitals) both gay men and women) so if someone has a penis but presents as a woman (this isn't an argument about passing) then it's transphobic not to be attracted to them because they have genitals of the opposite sex that you are attracted to. Primarily I'd say I'm straight and a big part of that is my enjoyment of my partner's penis. (sorry that statement is tmi and redic to type)

This got me thinking about gc argument on here. For the first time I was thinking this doesn't make logical sense. You can dress how you want, call yourself what you want, use the spaces you want, as actually I don't think most trans people are a threat. I'm happy for trans women to be women. But I feel trying to dictate who people have sex is too much.

I'm sort of musing, but also wonder if actually on both sides there is such adversity that there's no going back? With increasingly wild arguments on both sides. So how would there be a way forward from here?

I'm wondering if trans people are angry because they feel their bodies don't match their gender in their head. I've had on and of mental health issues so can imagine this feels awful. I'm also fat so know what it's like to be discriminated against. Maybe gc women are angry because they already feel ver discriminated against and are now told the rights we have are not needed. So yeah I just wonder if this debate is at a point with no way forward reasonable way forward. I'd like to know people's views on this.

Until period shaming stops men have no business in women's facilities.

You're not suggesting a social solution to a social problem, are you? That the beneficiaries of a power dynamic should be socialised into giving up abhorrent behaviour?

Dangerous territory, TheBuffster - where will it end? Aside from girls having an uninterrupted education and not being targets for bullying in a way that can carry over into later life. Dangerous.

I think the conversation goes to toilets due to two reasons:

1. it is a diversion for some as it nicely focus the conversation on an area far away from domestic violence sufferers, shelters, sports and prisons.

2. It is an are most women can relate to without thinking too deeply about it. And better for virtue signalling. “I don’t mind sharing a toilet with a trans woman” sounds better than “I don’t mind sufferers of domestic abuse and rape sharing spaces with trans women, unlikely to happen to me anyway”.

And better for virtue signalling. “I don’t mind sharing a toilet with a trans woman” sounds better than “I don’t mind sufferers of domestic abuse and rape sharing spaces with trans women, unlikely to happen to me anyway

I dont mind sharing...but I understand the arguments for religious women, or women who have been abused, sexually assaulted and raped and i dont like the idea of self id or men taking the piss

So if i have to come down on one side or the other when it comes to bogs, which i do, ill come down on the side of women

I blardy love you Rufus.

Now we know the majority of penis owners…absolutely would not do anything like that, but the problem is, some would and this is the reason we have sex segregated spaces which include toilets, changing facilities, dating sites etc. because we just can't tell who will and who won't.

I don't know what the general situation is in countries where sharing has always been common altho' I've read enough accounts to think it's not as rosy as it's made out to be.

If it's introduced in countries where it's not been the custom, with our recent social history of amplifying and facilitating abhorrent views when people feel they have permission (eg, uptick in anti-faith, anti-race rhetoric in public) - I'd be apprehensive that allowing this would lead to intimidation and abuse. Think of the number of men who are street angels, house devils - I think they'd be emboldened by their legally supported right to enact what would be seen as micro-aggressions like following women into a space after brushing them off.

Power corrupts. Absolute power etc.

It is an are most women can relate to without thinking too deeply about it.

yes

And better for virtue signalling. “I don’t mind sharing a toilet with a trans woman” sounds better than “I don’t mind sufferers of domestic abuse and rape sharing spaces with trans women, unlikely to happen to me anyway

I think this is true too. I do see people switch to toilets because they cannot be seen to say this. They can also bring out points like 'they just want to pee', and 'these males need the protection from male violence too', and 'you have been sharing for decades and not ever noticed'.

But they cannot be seen stating why they think it is appropriate for victims to share their spaces in shelters etc when the victims have no choice in the matter knowing that the safe space they have will likely be withdrawn if they make a complaint.

Just like the argument was brought out in Scotland recently that specifying that a victim wanted a female health care professional after rape and assault was a problem due to 'lack of females in that profession available' so did not want to add the clause into law. It was a distraction.

Rather than admit that they seemed to not care that traumatised women's wishes were being ignored in the pursuit of inclusiveness.

@gardenbird48

This popped up today - two high profile tw discussing women’s toilet habits on social media.

When I go to the toilets I don’t really want some sniggering person who doesn’t share the same sex as me (I can’t say it more clearly as I’m on two strikes) in the next cubicle listening, judging, and then posting it on social media.

It may be claimed that girls could do that too and that may be true but they are far less likely as they share the same body type so are hardly likely to find the idea of hovering above the seat because of germs quite so hilarious.

The majority of TW obviously have the advantage of being able to pee standing up.

This just highlights the ignorance. There is no way you can tell if a woman is hovering or not. Women can't aim their urine in either scenario. Therefore, pee hits water indiscriminately.

Men can aim at the porcelain to minimise sound. Women can't. Or if they do, it's fluke.

Also, although I haven't taken a poll, just through general bemoaning, I don't know many women who don't hover. If they can, of course. It's not always easy.

(Also, as an aside, contrary to certainly what I thought, men aiming at the near side porcelain, rather than the far side minimises the 'splash zone' apparently.)

I'd argue that the women raped in India whilst peeing in fields for the lack of female toilets 'just want to pee'.

I don't buy,' just want to pee' elsewise as otherwise the mens would suffice.

When trans was just a small group and not the giant umbrella I would have even said the disabled could perhaps be used. But D's is handicapped and don't want to share his facilities with anyone who fancies them when the potential group is enormous.

It'd be nice if period shaming could be eradicated as a social solution. But menstrual flying pigs are more likely.

Why is it that I only ever see 'just want to pee' addressed to women?
I would really like to see it directed at those men who are hostile towards transwomen using the men's toilets.

I would really like to see it directed at those men who are hostile towards transwomen using the men's toilets.

That would require any such men to be identified first... They may be apocryphal.

by supporting the rights of males who "identify as lesbians" (also called "transwomen") over the rights of lesbians to choose their sexual partners (on the basis of their sex, not how they "identify") is in fact enforcing heterosexuality on lesbians

Lesbian women have been deleted this week, by HQ, for discussing their objection to those enforcing this heterosexuality on women for their own personal benefit, and being all about their needs and feelings and rights with no interest whatsoever in how lesbian women may feel about this.

Let that sink in. People who believe in enforced heterosexuality for women, and women having no right to even talk about their anger and resentment of this homophobia and dehumanising of women, reported this to HQ. And HQ listened and supported them.

In terms of winning hearts, minds, leading somewhere with sunshine, rainbows and everyone happy side by side? #fail

I'm fucking sickened and increasingly angry, resentful, and determined to stand up to this shit. If you're determined to stamp on my toes don't fucking demand I smile at you while you do it.

DH says men's is very unselfconscious- do your business and leave kind of deal. He's very body conscious so would be sensitive to any 'vibe'.

They're also in there, for what, 40 seconds tops? It's a different ballgame to women's where you'll potentially be in longer, more vulnerable with kacks down etc.

Looking at the enormous ladies cue I know which I would choose if I was a penis haver ( or if I didn't give a shit that my presence might make some men bashful and uncomfortable)

I started out over a year ago, thinking that surely no-one would be awful and homophobic enough to harass lesbians about not being sexually attracted to penises. One moron on the internet isn't a growing social ill, I thought. I can find any kind of idiot purporting that their views are totally normal, I thought.

Then I started looking into it and asking around. It has become more and more mainstream amongst younger people. I've joined twitter and tried to counter the opinions of seemingly-normal university students that lesbian does not mean "attracted to feminine presenting people". They just insist that you're being transphobic and hearts-not-parts.

The Irish celebrity Rory O'Neill tried to disprove that lesbians were being harassed late last year. He said people said it a lot, but no-one would present him with evidence.

Lesbians on twitter deluged him with evidence of what was going on and how difficult life had become for them. He ignored it.

twitter.com/PantiBliss/status/1322900409594351618?s=19

People have the right to refuse to consider others as a sexual partner on whatever grounds they like. We all have the right to set our own boundaries. I don't see why that's even in dispute. How could it possibly be the case that compelling lesbians to consider men as sexual partners is a reasonable or progressive position?

I don't think there is a single trans person I know who would disagree with that and in truth many trans people have come on these boards and explicitly said that they do not consider it transphobic if a lesbian doesn't want to sleep with them. It is not a mainstream position, it is fringe of the fringe and even then is completely misrepresented.

@Okbussitout

The truth of the situation is that trans people have always been part of LGBT culture, many trans people see themselves are LGB, and even if they don't they may be seen that way by others and so can face homophobic harassment or discrimination. There are some lesbian and gay people who feel that attraction based on gender is a part of their sexuality and as such might consider a relationship with a trans person and some who absolutely wouldn't and both are fine. Equally there are many lesbian and gay people who recognise someone in their aquired gender and even if they might not fancy them are happy to share spaces with them - so for example quite a few lesbian and gay dating apps or other spaces welcome trans people, but this nothing really new, the best known lesbian bar in Soho in the 90s was always trans inclusive.

The reason people objected to GettheLout at Pride was not because they don't want to have sex but trans women but because they barged themselves to the front of the parade and attempted to disrupt it and are led by a notorious anti-trans activist who is opposed to all trans rights and has a history and disrupting trans events and harassing trans people at work. That's why the group is considered transphobic, nobody cares who they want to sleep with.

I'm sure this post will be responded to with the usual furious objections and the insistence that it is mainstream 'Trans ideology' that lesbians who don't want to date trans women are transphobic. And they will no doubt find a blogpost or a youtube video or a few tweets to back this up - after all there are billions of people on the internet, if you go looking for a viewpoint of any kind you will doutbless find it. What they will ignore is the thousands of trans people who have said this is not true, and that they do not consider a lesbian a transphobe if she doesn't want to date trans women. The reason this falsehood is pursued so ferociously is twofold - first it presents trans people as sexually predatory is some way which has long been a key aim of trans hostile activists and secondly it is an attempt to split up the LGBT community and remove the natural solidarity that most LGB people feel with trans people in an attempt to marginalise and weaken the trans community.

And as an example of how disingenuous and insincere this claim is in the next breath gender critical activists will be claiming that trans women are trying to turn all young lesbians into men - which seems somewhat contradictory to the aim of trying to force all lesbians to have sex with them because trans women are secretly predatory heterosexual men. But consistency doesn't seem to matter anymore. All that seems to matter is portraying trans people in the worst possible light in order to remove public sympathy for them and roll back trans rights.

One moron on the internet isn't a growing social ill, I thought. I can find any kind of idiot purporting that their views are totally normal, I thought.

Absolutely. What you needed to have been looking at is the reaction - or lack of it. It's the reactions to people being idiots or sensible that tell you whether you're in trouble yet.

We're in deep trouble.

What they will ignore is the thousands of trans people who have said this is not true,

Why should we be favouring the opinions of trans people about the experiences of lesbians, rather than listening to the lesbians?

If only you weren't so super-selective about which threads you venture into, you maybe could have nipped into this one and reassured the lesbians there that trans people do not want those lesbian spaces to be doing what they are doing, and that you might try do do something about women being punished for being same-sex attracted.

After all, if it's a fringe-of-a-fringe position, shouldn't be hard to help those women, right?

I think it seems to be a problem that the dating apps for lesbians don’t allow women to select biological women only. And there is a lot of anecdotal evidence of women being kicked off the apps for stating that they only are interested in biological women.

Jj, why don’t the trans women object to this in large numbers if they really agree that lesbians are free to date biological women only?

It should be a really easy fix. Trans women and biological women can all set their dating preferences in terms of biological and be matched accordingly. And everyone would be happy if I understand you correctly?

@NecessaryScene1

One moron on the internet isn't a growing social ill, I thought. I can find any kind of idiot purporting that their views are totally normal, I thought.

Absolutely. What you needed to have been looking at is the reaction - or lack of it. It's the reactions to people being idiots or sensible that tell you whether you're in trouble yet.

We're in deep trouble.

Yes! That is exactly it.

If you had posted that kind of nonsense on teenage social media circa 2005, everyone would have piled-on. No-one would have worried about being transphobic.

As I recall, all female-orientated transwomen pratting around on web forums carefully avoided calling themselves lesbians.

These days, people either agree, or they are scared to say anything.

I started a discussion with one nice young woman asking about the causes of "growing transphobia". I said, well, people are very concerned about lesbians being pressured by transwomen. I expected her to say I was over-estimating its frequency or it never happened.

She didn't. She justified it. She said TWAW and she insisted that post SRS, you can't tell the difference between a transwoman and a woman.

I am waiting for pro trans people to come and agree that biological sex should be possible to select for in the dating apps.

Honestly I don’t mind what people do with their lives. If you think trans women are women and trans men are men and want to include them in your dating pool, go for it. I wish everyone the best of luck in their love lives.

It goes without saying that you should find your romantic partners within which sex (or both) that you prefer.

I just do not understand the policing of other people’s sexuality. I think it is vile.

It's hardly fringe. It's everywhere.

Spaces kicking off Lesbians for stating they're same-sex attracted:

1. DIVA
2. HINGE
3. HER
4. WAPA
5. REDDIT
6. Autostraddle
7. Allure

And there is a lot of anecdotal evidence of women being kicked off the apps for stating that they only are interested in biological women.

Is there evidence of people being kicked off lesbian and gay dating sites for being same sex attracted, or are they kicked off for ranting on and on about trans people? Because we've seen this banned just for being a woman rhetoric a lot, when it actually turns out it was nothing to do with the person's sex but what they actually said.

So you would support the selection of biological sex on dating apps jj?

@jj1968

And there is a lot of anecdotal evidence of women being kicked off the apps for stating that they only are interested in biological women.

Is there evidence of people being kicked off lesbian and gay dating sites for being same sex attracted, or are they kicked off for ranting on and on about trans people? Because we've seen this banned just for being a woman rhetoric a lot, when it actually turns out it was nothing to do with the person's sex but what they actually said.

Lesbians should have lesbian only apps. For goodness sake, it's hardly revolutionary.

I am waiting for pro trans people to come and agree that biological sex should be possible to select for in the dating apps.

I wouldn't particularly have a problem with that, except there's no way to really verify it. One of the biggest problems LGBT dating apps actually face is straight people - either straight couples hiding behind a female profile looking for a threesome or straight men with fake profiles who've stolen pictures and are trying to coerce women into sexual conversations.

These apps are businesses and I suspect their policies reflect their users and the reality which is that the LGBT community has changed with people identifying as pan, queer, non-binary and all kinds of other variations of gender and sexuality. It seems very much a generational thing and it's quite likely young queers are more likely to use dating apps than older people and as they want to maximise their membership and keep them happy they allow people to identify as they choose. And this all makes things pretty complex from a 'search' perspective, and difficult to ensure that search results will only give you the exact type of person you are looking for. This doesn't even really just apply to LBG sites but any site trying to attract a younger customer, I was on okcupid for a bit and it was a nightmare for trans people and really hard to work out where to put yourself and how to describe yourself. It's all a bit of a muddle but as you can easily swipe past profiles of those you don't like and you are not compelled to respond to messages then most users seem more or less happy - and they do have millions of users after all, they must be doing something right.

I don't think it is the same Pride march but Get the L Out were treated pretty unpleasantly at this one too.

Their campaign is to increase lesbian visibility - in the good old days, that would have been a welcome aspect of Pride surely??

What evidence of their anti-trans activities can you provide jj that doesn't just comprise of them calling for lesbians to have a voice and that they are exclusively same-sex attracted?? Who is this 'notorious anti-trans activist' that apparently leads them (although they say they are a grassroots organisation with no leader).

You make this statement jj
All that seems to matter is portraying trans people in the worst possible light in order to remove public sympathy for them and roll back trans rights

I don't think any help is needed to do that - the activists lynching effigies of the Spanish Deputy Prime Minister and sending thousands of rape and death threats and getting ordinary women sacked for stating reality that are damaging our view of the situation.

I'll ask the question that is never answered - which specific rights do trans people not currently have or are in danger of 'being rolled back'?

Robert Mee, CEO of Lancaster Pride and organiser of the event stood amongst all the young people and said “fuck off you fucking dogs, you’re ruining it”, the swearing was hostile. Some of our group were spat on by the counter protesters and we were all sworn at multiple times.

www.gettheloutuk.com/blog/lesbian-visibility-at-lancaster-pride-2019.html