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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

How many women (or men) identify as cisgender?

485 replies

hallouminatus · 17/02/2021 21:02

On another forum, I said "Most women don't identify as cisgender, and many feel that describing them as such is disrespectful". Someone has asked me for evidence of this. I think it's probably true, but I haven't seen any statistics or even estimates of numbers. I'm interested in any evidence or arguments which would either support or refute my statement.

OP posts:
begaydocrime · 18/02/2021 22:24

@hallouminatus

On another forum, I said "Most women don't identify as cisgender, and many feel that describing them as such is disrespectful". Someone has asked me for evidence of this. I think it's probably true, but I haven't seen any statistics or even estimates of numbers. I'm interested in any evidence or arguments which would either support or refute my statement.
given that cis just means "not trans" then sure, i'm a woman and i'm not trans so i can't see why i wouldn't?
ErrolTheDragon · 18/02/2021 22:30

you understand that studies have shown that being trans is supported by mainstream science, right? Like, trans women's brains match female brains more than male brains, and vice versa with trans men? No one is trying to argue that biological sex isn't real, it's just only a part of the story for some people...

Except, mainstream science doesn't actually support the concept of 'male brains' and 'female brains'.

MsGrumpytrousers · 18/02/2021 22:33

"Like, trans women's brains match female brains more than male brains, and vice versa with trans men?"

So far as I am aware, there has never been a respected study that proved any substantial difference between men's brains and women's brains. So that wouldn't be possible.

MaudTheInvincible · 18/02/2021 22:39

@MsGrumpytrousers

"Like, trans women's brains match female brains more than male brains, and vice versa with trans men?"

So far as I am aware, there has never been a respected study that proved any substantial difference between men's brains and women's brains. So that wouldn't be possible.

And if there were anyway to reliably measure any difference between male and female brains that would be used as a diagnostic tool for trans people. Then we wouldn't have detransitioners.

Also, no one's trying to erase sex you say? twitter.com/slightlyatsea/status/1270332296583880705?s=20

How many women (or men) identify as cisgender?
AradiaGC · 18/02/2021 22:41

Not me, and I find it offensive.

The 'cis' woman of 1900 would have been perfectly happy not having the vote, because that was a male-gendered thing. Imagine where we'd be if the suffragettes had declared that they were non-binary, that of course 'cis' women didn't need the vote, frivolous and feminine as they were - but that they, being unlike other women with their inferior womanly brains, deserved to have it.

The gender roles have shifted a bit between then and now, but the logic is just the same.

No self-respecting woman is 'cis'.

Lettera · 18/02/2021 22:42

I'm a woman - an adult human female. I don't have a gender identity. Gender identity is based on sexist stereotypes.

Bluesername · 18/02/2021 22:46

I could "identify as" a cat, tree or brick but in reality I would still be a woman, not one of the above.

If I believe I'm a cat, and convince enough people I'm a cat - because I say I am - would there need to be a new label for all the real cats? No, of course not.

Despite my delusions I would not really be a cat and there's no need to redefine the word 'cat' to accommodate me.

Men do not get to redefine what a woman is. Cis is offensive.

I1give1up · 19/02/2021 00:11

My answer is no, OP. I don’t identify as c*s, and I’d hate if anyone used it to describe me. I’m a woman. An adult, human female.

Equally, I describe myself as gay (never queer), and I don’t attempt to ‘reclaim’ any offensive terms used towards people of my ethnicity, either currently or historically.

5zeds · 19/02/2021 00:27

Gender identity is based on sexist stereotypes. this is what I think. Why on earth would I engage with the promotion of sexist stereotypes? I’m not sexist and have spent much on my life pushing back against nonsensical assumptions about women.

Babysharkdoodoodood · 19/02/2021 00:29

I don't identify as anything. I am a woman, full stop.

duffmcstockings · 19/02/2021 01:01

I don't identify as a gender at all. Woman though.

Idliketoteachtheworldtosing1 · 19/02/2021 01:52

I really don't understand all this nonsense, I was born a female girl, I am now a female woman, my partner was born a male boy, he is now a male man.
I do not get the need for all these sub categories all it is doing is causing animosity.
It's like the word 'woman' is verboten and god help you if you say the wrong thing or hold the wrong views you will be accused of alsorts and have your world turned upside down.

Jumpintothefire · 19/02/2021 03:22

Don't know anyone in RL who identifies as cisgender . Not one male or female. DD (14) and DS(23) know all about gender wooo but think it is sexist nonsense and don't ever use cisgender .

BoreOfWhabylon · 19/02/2021 03:56

And it's a no from me. Just woman.

MoleSmokes · 19/02/2021 06:45

“Cis-gender” is a made-up concept to bolster the notions that
a) “trans” means “the opposite of X” and
b) that “gender identity” is anything more than an unverifiable hypothesis.

If 1% of the population imagine that they have a “gender identity” there is no obligation on the 99% to humour them to extent of agreeing that
a) they believe such a thing exists and
b) that they have one as well.

It’s like someone who believes in psychoanalytic theory insisting that everyone must
a) believe in psychoanalytic theory and
b) must own up to having an Ego and an Id.

To answer either “Yes” or “No” to the OP’s question is to accept the premise that “gender identity” exists. It is simply a construct of Gender Ideology and no one is obliged to accept its tenets any more than they are obliged to accept the tenets of Pastafarianism.

Not all trans people understand “trans” to mean “a type of person”. The other meaning is that it is a way of living your life in a continuous journey of transition that, logically, cannot have a final destination as no one can change sex. “Gender identity” does not feature in that model. Neither does “cis” because there is no static “trans” state to which it could stand in opposition.

I came across this analysis recently, which goes into the linguistic wriggling around the terms “trans” and “cis”:

(Too much to italicise it all so you’ll have to squint to see it as a quote)

“ Dictionaries typically give three or four definitions of the prefix ‘trans-‘, but from an etymological point of view they boil down to two, both from Latin, and cognate with Greek ‘meta’ in some of its senses.

Either it means ‘on the other side of’, or it means ‘undergoing change’.

The first use is the original one, but is now by far the rarer, being limited to chemistry, where it refers to chemical bonds being on the other side of a line of symmetry, and geography, the Romans having named two of their European provinces Trans-Alpine Gaul and Cis-Alpine Gaul.

This terminology has been borrowed a few times, with Transjordania and Cisjordania meaning territories on one side or the other of the river Jordan, and Transkei and Ciskei referring in the same way to the two banks of the river Kei. The prefix cis-, meaning ‘on this side of’ is also used in chemistry, this being an analogy to the geographic use.

Far more common is the meaning of ‘trans-‘ as to do with change, as in translate, transform, transaction, transition, and many other familiar words. It is immediately clear that none of these words have opposites with cis-. A moment’s thought shows why.

If we say that something is on the other side of a barrier, then we can conceive of something on this side of it. But if we say that something changes, then there is really no need to have a word for the state in which no change has taken place. If we do want to form a negative, we negate the whole word. If something is not translated, it is not ‘cislated’; it is untranslated or just not translated. ‘Cisformed’ is incomprehensible; untransformed or not transformed is fine. Un-transacted.

With nouns, though, even this kind of negation is impossible, not exactly for grammatical but for logical reasons. An iconic ‘trans’ word, the title of Lou Reed’s 1972 album that included ‘Walk on the Wild Side’, is ‘Transformer’. So what is the opposite of that? Cisformer? Not transformer? Like most common nouns, it has no negation.

So how has it come about that when applied to sex and gender, the word ‘trans’ is widely believed to have an opposite in ’cis’? Cis-gender, cis-sexual, even cis-man and cis-woman? There is only one explanation. In this usage, both ‘trans’ and ‘cis’ are meaningless.

In fact, they share the special kind of meaninglessness we have already seen in the Wikipedia definition of homophobia. As a purely ideological term, ‘trans’ can mean whatever the fashion of the moment decrees. Currently, one of its main uses is in the expression ‘the trans community’, a term which suggests that there are lots of different kinds of trans people (or ‘folks’ as they are often called for reasons that escape me: is ‘people’ a politically incorrect term too?) and they are all joined together in one big happy family. So I have a question. What about transvestites? Are they part of the ‘trans community’? And if not, why not?

There has been an attempt to unperson the transvestite population.

Paradoxically, it seems that it is only by disavowing their ‘trans’ name that transvestites are allowed into the ‘trans community’. The word ‘transvestite’ dates from the 1920s and therefore predates both ‘transsexual’ (1949) and ‘transgender’ (1966), and there was no mystery about what it meant. There were female transvestites, often lesbians who dressed as men in public, but the bulk of transvestites were heterosexual or mainly heterosexual men who got a sexual thrill from dressing up in women’s clothes at home. They might occasionally go to some party or special event, or risk an outing to the pub, but it was mainly a private passion indulged at home.

Since the ‘born in the wrong body’ ideology had not yet been invented, it never occurred to anyone that indulging in this harmless fetish was the start of an important journey towards changing into women or anything like that. Transvestites don’t want surgery or hormones and are content with the thrill of occasionally dressing up.

Since this does not fit the narrative of trans ideology, according to which any small boy who shows an interest in putting on a dress is to be whisked off for a lifetime of drugs and surgery ‘before it is too late’, happily heterosexual adult transvestites (often married, and borrowing their wives’ clothes) are something of an embarrassment.

However, it seems that if they stop calling themselves transvestites and start calling themselves ‘cross-dressers’ then they are allowed to be part of the trans community. Since ‘cross-dresser’ and ‘transvestite’ mean exactly the same thing, the only difference seems to be the use of the prefix ‘trans’.”

From:
“Trans + Gender = Civilizational Collapse”
Christopher Lord, April 2020
newdiscourses.com/2020/04/trans-gender-civilizational-collapse/

ErrolTheDragon · 19/02/2021 08:54

In other words - 'Cis' is a false back-construction from the inappropriately applied positional meaning of 'trans' rather than the pertinent 'movement' - literally transition - meaning of it. Trans people often undergo transformations. There's no such thing as cissision or cisformation.

HaroldMeeker · 19/02/2021 09:00

I'm a woman. Adult human female. Biologically female, with all the stuff that comes with that. I spit on your "cis" denigration of my female hood.

CharlieParley · 19/02/2021 09:46

@ErrolTheDragon

In other words - 'Cis' is a false back-construction from the inappropriately applied positional meaning of 'trans' rather than the pertinent 'movement' - literally transition - meaning of it. Trans people often undergo transformations. There's no such thing as cissision or cisformation.
Yes. Like I said in my earlier comment, the man who coined the terms cissexual and cisgender even explained that's exactly what he was thinking: if there are transsexuals, there must be cissexuals. And that was framed in the context of conforming to stereotypes being considered healthy, while not conforming was was seen as abnormal.

What I find astonishing about that is that this happened in the 90s. We'd just had a whole decade of gender-non-conformity being hip, celebrated even. With countless gender-bending role models for boys and girls to aspire to.

And yet these researchers still decided it was somehow unnatural to reject sex stereotypes and sex role stereotypes.

Anyoneelsewilldo · 19/02/2021 09:49

I hate the term and don’t want to be referred as a cis woman. I do know what it means and how the trans lobby are trying to force it on us.

I know that if my mother/ grandmother / sister / sister in law saw that a test was being advised for cis-women they wouldn’t think it applied to them and would assume it was some women in a particular circumstance instead(ie women with a certain illness)

merrymouse · 19/02/2021 10:09

you understand that studies have shown that being trans is supported by mainstream science, right? Like, trans women's brains match female brains more than male brains, and vice versa with trans men? No one is trying to argue that biological sex isn't real, it's just only a part of the story for some people...

1). No, this has not been demonstrated. The idea of male and female brains is very much not an agreed concept in science

2). even if you could demonstrate overlaps, you wouldn’t be demonstrating anything more meaningful than overlapping heights. You still wouldn’t have anything meaningful to say about sex.

3). The concept is not helpful to trans rights because you introduce the idea that there is a test that people must pass to be truly trans.

merrymouse · 19/02/2021 10:10

And yet these researchers still decided it was somehow unnatural to reject sex stereotypes and sex role stereotypes.

Agree, and it’s mind blowing that this has been adopted as the progressive stance.

merrymouse · 19/02/2021 10:27

There were female transvestites, often lesbians who dressed as men in public, but the bulk of transvestites were heterosexual or mainly heterosexual men who got a sexual thrill from dressing up in women’s clothes at home. They might occasionally go to some party or special event, or risk an outing to the pub, but it was mainly a private passion indulged at home.

I think it’s very notable that there is no longer a real female equivalent to cross dressing, presumably because it’s not felt that a woman debases herself in anyway if she wears men’s clothes - not just ‘unisex’ clothes, but e.g. jeans and shoes designed to be worn by a man.

Labobo · 19/02/2021 10:36

@merrymouse

There were female transvestites, often lesbians who dressed as men in public, but the bulk of transvestites were heterosexual or mainly heterosexual men who got a sexual thrill from dressing up in women’s clothes at home. They might occasionally go to some party or special event, or risk an outing to the pub, but it was mainly a private passion indulged at home.

I think it’s very notable that there is no longer a real female equivalent to cross dressing, presumably because it’s not felt that a woman debases herself in anyway if she wears men’s clothes - not just ‘unisex’ clothes, but e.g. jeans and shoes designed to be worn by a man.

I'm not sure if this is true. There was a brilliant article a few years ago about a woman who wore a man's tailored suit into the office. She was stunned at how different she felt. The pockets were roomy, the shoes comfortable. She felt strong and liberated. I saw photos and she looked fantastic. But she got some quite hostile responses from some quarters as though she was playing dressy up. I can't find the article now. If I do, I'll link it.
ErrolTheDragon · 19/02/2021 10:45

What, so was she supposed to wear a suit adapted for women by the cunning use of inferior tailoring and inadequate pockets, or softer colours? A dressing-up simulacrum of 'male clothes' rather than the real thing?Confused

merrymouse · 19/02/2021 10:53

There was a brilliant article a few years ago about a woman who wore a man's tailored suit into the office. She was stunned at how different she felt. The pockets were roomy, the shoes comfortable. She felt strong and liberated. I saw photos and she looked fantastic. But she got some quite hostile responses from some quarters as though she was playing dressy up. I can't find the article now. If I do, I'll link it.

I don't think hostile responses from some quarters is the same. There obviously are restrictions on what women can wear in some situations, e.g. being asked to wear heals on the red carpet at Cannes.

However, the Charlie Girl/Annie Hall aesthetic has been around for a long time and there is no male equivalent to 'boyfriend jeans'. A woman in traditionally male clothes is empowered. The opposite is not true.

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